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Help me settle an exhaust brake argument.
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Steve M
If driven the right way the E-Brake works even in seattle where it rains ALL the time. I agree that on ice is a different story and my truck WON'T even move if it's ice on the road.
If driven the right way the E-Brake works even in seattle where it rains ALL the time. I agree that on ice is a different story and my truck WON'T even move if it's ice on the road.
Glasmiths,
I never said it wasn't safer or more cost effective. I said it's something to think about. Read my post for what it says. I said it's something to think about. I didn't say you were stupid or throwing money away by having and using one. I said it's something to think about. I never said they were unsafe. I said it's something to think about.
10 zillion OTR's? I didn't realize there were that many trucks on the road.
If you read up on Jake Brakes, you'll read the same thing. They don't recommend using them on wet roads. Not even on 10 zillion OTR's. They're not intended to take the place of the service brakes. They're intended to assist the service brakes. If your using the exhaust brake at around 2,000 rpm, probably ok, if your load is pushing you up to 2,500 or higher rpm, and the road is wet and curvy, you might be putting too much braking force on one axle right at the pivot point. Better to brake on all five axles if the road is slick.
But you do what ever makes you happy. I couldn't care less. It's something "I" will think about whenever I'm in that situation.
I never said it wasn't safer or more cost effective. I said it's something to think about. Read my post for what it says. I said it's something to think about. I didn't say you were stupid or throwing money away by having and using one. I said it's something to think about. I never said they were unsafe. I said it's something to think about.
10 zillion OTR's? I didn't realize there were that many trucks on the road.
If you read up on Jake Brakes, you'll read the same thing. They don't recommend using them on wet roads. Not even on 10 zillion OTR's. They're not intended to take the place of the service brakes. They're intended to assist the service brakes. If your using the exhaust brake at around 2,000 rpm, probably ok, if your load is pushing you up to 2,500 or higher rpm, and the road is wet and curvy, you might be putting too much braking force on one axle right at the pivot point. Better to brake on all five axles if the road is slick.
But you do what ever makes you happy. I couldn't care less. It's something "I" will think about whenever I'm in that situation.
Help me settle this exhaust brake argument
I have to disagree with the premise that too much strain is on just the one axle on a decent using just the E-brake. Remember, there is 245+ HP being applied on the up hill... . to just that one axle. The E-brake lists 180 HP as its maximum effort and that is at 2800 RPM. I do agree with the ice situation. That can be a bit unnerving... . but I still use it in the winter... .
... . cautiously. To further the reasoning behind using just the E-brake to sustain a speed on a decent..... the service brakes remain cool and fully prepared for an emergency stop. Often while traveling I-15 and other highways with severe steeps here in the West, I have been treated to nosrtils full of the smell of cooking brake linings and have had those OTRs pass me with smoke billowing from trailer brakes. I believe the development of the Jake Brake was brought about by a wild ride down Cajon Pass (pre I-15 days) by Jacobs in his OTR truck where the service brakes were insufficient. Anyone familiar with old Highway 99 from LA to Bakersfield can attest to the failure of service brakes to provide sufficient braking on a long downgrade. Many a four-wheeler has been overrun by runaway 18 wheelers on that old road.
I have to disagree with the premise that too much strain is on just the one axle on a decent using just the E-brake. Remember, there is 245+ HP being applied on the up hill... . to just that one axle. The E-brake lists 180 HP as its maximum effort and that is at 2800 RPM. I do agree with the ice situation. That can be a bit unnerving... . but I still use it in the winter... .
... . cautiously. To further the reasoning behind using just the E-brake to sustain a speed on a decent..... the service brakes remain cool and fully prepared for an emergency stop. Often while traveling I-15 and other highways with severe steeps here in the West, I have been treated to nosrtils full of the smell of cooking brake linings and have had those OTRs pass me with smoke billowing from trailer brakes. I believe the development of the Jake Brake was brought about by a wild ride down Cajon Pass (pre I-15 days) by Jacobs in his OTR truck where the service brakes were insufficient. Anyone familiar with old Highway 99 from LA to Bakersfield can attest to the failure of service brakes to provide sufficient braking on a long downgrade. Many a four-wheeler has been overrun by runaway 18 wheelers on that old road.
Consider this type of experience.
We were going down a pass that consisted of many miles of 6% grade. Sure my truck and trailer brakes would h ave handled that pass OK. but the exhaust brake and the correct gear were doing just fine also, and I was not having to use the truck and trailer brakes at all so instead of being hot, they were cool------when I came around a curve as a road grader pulled off a wide spot and started down in front of me at about 15 MPH; I was doing about 50 mph. It was strictly two lane, and there was a string of traffic meeting us. A rock wall on the right, a deep canyon on the left. It was slow RAPIDLY to 15 MPH or rear end the grader.
When I matched his speed, I was no more than 10 feet from him.
I suspect that had I been relying on my perfectly adequate to hold the truck and trailer on the down grade, they would have been hot and therefore less effective and I suspect the match up in speed between me and the grader would have come shortly after I hit him.
I believe that the E-brake saved me a collision and more than paid for itself in that one 30 second interval.
Vaughn
We were going down a pass that consisted of many miles of 6% grade. Sure my truck and trailer brakes would h ave handled that pass OK. but the exhaust brake and the correct gear were doing just fine also, and I was not having to use the truck and trailer brakes at all so instead of being hot, they were cool------when I came around a curve as a road grader pulled off a wide spot and started down in front of me at about 15 MPH; I was doing about 50 mph. It was strictly two lane, and there was a string of traffic meeting us. A rock wall on the right, a deep canyon on the left. It was slow RAPIDLY to 15 MPH or rear end the grader.
When I matched his speed, I was no more than 10 feet from him.
I suspect that had I been relying on my perfectly adequate to hold the truck and trailer on the down grade, they would have been hot and therefore less effective and I suspect the match up in speed between me and the grader would have come shortly after I hit him.
I believe that the E-brake saved me a collision and more than paid for itself in that one 30 second interval.
Vaughn
SteveM:
I agree with everything you say
. However, I do not have a stick-shift, so I need some help. Though the controller keeps the t/c locked the engine braking does not do as good as the PAC BRAKE. I'm not sure if I follow you about the load pushing you. Mine has never done that, even on an 8% bridge over Lake Charles. On 5-7% in WV in 3rd direct it will bring you to a stop if you let it go. No it wouldn't, because the t/c unlocks at 28mph in 3rd or 18 in 2nd. I've just never run into that problem, and only an idiot would be on the highway with a load on ice or snow
Didn't mean to kick up any dust. Sorry if I hit the wrong way...
I agree with everything you say
. However, I do not have a stick-shift, so I need some help. Though the controller keeps the t/c locked the engine braking does not do as good as the PAC BRAKE. I'm not sure if I follow you about the load pushing you. Mine has never done that, even on an 8% bridge over Lake Charles. On 5-7% in WV in 3rd direct it will bring you to a stop if you let it go. No it wouldn't, because the t/c unlocks at 28mph in 3rd or 18 in 2nd. I've just never run into that problem, and only an idiot would be on the highway with a load on ice or snow Didn't mean to kick up any dust. Sorry if I hit the wrong way...
Yeah me too. I wasn't trying to stir up any dust. Just a thought...
What Vaughn experienced is what I was trying to convey. His service brakes are set up right and worked when needed on a downhill grade. His exhaust brake was all he needed to maintain his downhill speed until he needed his properly set up and adequate service brakes to do their job as needed. If the road was wet and the descent was 7%, you don't want too much braking on the truck's rear axle only and then add the service brakes too it. It "could" be enough to cause loss of traction on the truck's rear wheels and lead to a Jack-knife.
Same with the trailer brakes being too weak. If the truck is trying to stop the truck and trailer both, the trailer will be pushing the truck and could lead to a jack-knife if the road is slick. The trailer needs to have all the brakes it needs to stop it's own weight and not rely on the trucks brakes to hold it back. The truck's brakes are to stop the truck and the trailer's brakes are to stop the trailer. The exhaust brake or Jake brake is to assist the service brakes but the service brakes need to be adequate enough to hold or stop the load if you find yourself on slick roads or if the exhaust brake fails.
I have an automatic too and would like to add an exhaust brake to help with the downhills when we go to the mountains. I'd just have to watch the transmission temps and if the small amount of drag second gear gives causes too much heat then I'll add the TC controller or go back to a standard transmission truck. So far we haven't had any trouble with our 7,000 lb 5th wheel and the minor grades we've encountered.
So once again, I'm not trying to preach, just give a thought.
What Vaughn experienced is what I was trying to convey. His service brakes are set up right and worked when needed on a downhill grade. His exhaust brake was all he needed to maintain his downhill speed until he needed his properly set up and adequate service brakes to do their job as needed. If the road was wet and the descent was 7%, you don't want too much braking on the truck's rear axle only and then add the service brakes too it. It "could" be enough to cause loss of traction on the truck's rear wheels and lead to a Jack-knife.
Same with the trailer brakes being too weak. If the truck is trying to stop the truck and trailer both, the trailer will be pushing the truck and could lead to a jack-knife if the road is slick. The trailer needs to have all the brakes it needs to stop it's own weight and not rely on the trucks brakes to hold it back. The truck's brakes are to stop the truck and the trailer's brakes are to stop the trailer. The exhaust brake or Jake brake is to assist the service brakes but the service brakes need to be adequate enough to hold or stop the load if you find yourself on slick roads or if the exhaust brake fails.
I have an automatic too and would like to add an exhaust brake to help with the downhills when we go to the mountains. I'd just have to watch the transmission temps and if the small amount of drag second gear gives causes too much heat then I'll add the TC controller or go back to a standard transmission truck. So far we haven't had any trouble with our 7,000 lb 5th wheel and the minor grades we've encountered.
So once again, I'm not trying to preach, just give a thought.
I'm guessing you already have one. If not, get one. Then, chose:
Option 1: Tell your buddy he's right.
Option 2: Tell your buddy "I understand your point of view, and that may be the right answer for you, but I've reached a different conclusion. "
Option 3: Tell him that your poor little inferior Cummins needs the exhaust brake because it doesn't have the "warm up" feature built into the Fords at the factory. Then every year or two, share a few experiences and ask him how his brakes are holding up.
He can "get by" without one - lots of folks do. Sure, properly used, under some circumstances, it might save his life. But if we want to talk about that, then what about improper use? What if he has a wreck because he used it when he shouldn't have? Will that be your fault because you talked him into it?
All I can guarantee you is that even if he "gets by" without one, you'll continue to be glad you DO have one!
Option 1: Tell your buddy he's right.
Option 2: Tell your buddy "I understand your point of view, and that may be the right answer for you, but I've reached a different conclusion. "
Option 3: Tell him that your poor little inferior Cummins needs the exhaust brake because it doesn't have the "warm up" feature built into the Fords at the factory. Then every year or two, share a few experiences and ask him how his brakes are holding up.
He can "get by" without one - lots of folks do. Sure, properly used, under some circumstances, it might save his life. But if we want to talk about that, then what about improper use? What if he has a wreck because he used it when he shouldn't have? Will that be your fault because you talked him into it?
All I can guarantee you is that even if he "gets by" without one, you'll continue to be glad you DO have one!
Last edited by a moderator:
I dont tow very much weight like alot of folks here. Even so Im still gonna get an exhaust brake because it has so many benifits. I here you guys talk about grades. I couldnt tell you what grade im running cause its not posted ever anywhere because there are so many mountains. every where you go your going through some pass.
question i ponder. I run two sleds around on a trailer with no brakes. If im coming down a mountain in 4 wheel drive, thats how you decend em in these parts, does it matter if its the brakes or the exhaust brake decelerating my momentum? Ive heard the snogoer magazine rave about exhaust brakes for descending icy hills with a small load behind the truck. these single axle trailers most often dont use brakes. I use the engine compression to keep my momentum down. whats the difference of that and an exhaust brake? I use the gears in my auto every day to assist with braking. My brakes get hot when I drive because I drive fast. This prevents me from glazing my rotors.
question i ponder. I run two sleds around on a trailer with no brakes. If im coming down a mountain in 4 wheel drive, thats how you decend em in these parts, does it matter if its the brakes or the exhaust brake decelerating my momentum? Ive heard the snogoer magazine rave about exhaust brakes for descending icy hills with a small load behind the truck. these single axle trailers most often dont use brakes. I use the engine compression to keep my momentum down. whats the difference of that and an exhaust brake? I use the gears in my auto every day to assist with braking. My brakes get hot when I drive because I drive fast. This prevents me from glazing my rotors.
Using your e-brake with four wheel drive is great in my opinion. I have a dually and it tends to slide real easy in two wheel drive when the roads are slick so I tend to run in 4hi more often than I did with my old half ton. At first I avoided using the e-brake (it was on it when I bought the truck from my mom) but as I got used to how she handled in all types of weather I started experimenting until I have gotten comfortable and know the peculiarities of it. As some stated earlier it can be dangerous using it with two wheel drive in slick conditions so I avoid that, but with 4wd engaged that braking power goes to front and back as well. Makes for a nice little addition when the roads are slick, and the wheels don't lock up quick like they do with using the regular brakes. Go slow and easy and don't expect it to eliminate the conditions You are driving in, but it definitely can help you get through them easier.
Wish I had pictures of my SPLIT rotor from my old F-350, towing aroung 9K no trailer brakes, waaayyyyyy overheated truck breaks. 
When a rotor splits it makes a loud bang
Have trailer with brakes now, and will be installing an e brake soon. Lost trailer brakes due to the blown fuse and blown turn signal relay a while back. That s@cked.
my . 02
M
When a rotor splits it makes a loud bang
Have trailer with brakes now, and will be installing an e brake soon. Lost trailer brakes due to the blown fuse and blown turn signal relay a while back. That s@cked.
my . 02
M
Mark,
I don't have too many things to add to what has already been said, but here's my $. 02.
1. I have driven semis to Vail with out a Jake brake. I have never been so tired in my life. It is a lot of work to control that kind of weight over these hills. An E-brake will save on driver fatigue.
2. Take your friend to Summit County Texico (I-70 to Silverthorne, turn left on US-6, past City Market, right at light at top of hill). They own the "big rig" tow truck. They have a great collection of pictures of trucks that "just need to set up their trailer brakes right".
But we need to look at the other side.
Reasons not to get an E-brake.
1. Save money on brake.
2. Tow truck drivers need work.
3. Fire departments need work.
4. Ambulances need work.
5. Hospitals need patients.
6. Flight for Life needs a reason to fly.
Scott
I don't have too many things to add to what has already been said, but here's my $. 02.
1. I have driven semis to Vail with out a Jake brake. I have never been so tired in my life. It is a lot of work to control that kind of weight over these hills. An E-brake will save on driver fatigue.
2. Take your friend to Summit County Texico (I-70 to Silverthorne, turn left on US-6, past City Market, right at light at top of hill). They own the "big rig" tow truck. They have a great collection of pictures of trucks that "just need to set up their trailer brakes right".
But we need to look at the other side.
Reasons not to get an E-brake.
1. Save money on brake.
2. Tow truck drivers need work.
3. Fire departments need work.
4. Ambulances need work.
5. Hospitals need patients.
6. Flight for Life needs a reason to fly.
Scott
I've learned a few things in this thread too. There are some people who believe you don't need to have service brakes set up proplerly. You just need an exhaust brake to use no matter what the conditions. There are some who believe everyone who doesn't have an exhaust brake will crash. Everyone who does have an exhaust brake will never crash. One who believes the crash pictures at Summit Texaco are all of people who didn't have an exhaust brake and there has never been a crash involving a big rig with an exhaust brake.
Some just simply can't read. So I'll try to make it as simple as I can.
Yes an exhaust brake is an asset for mountain driving. It should be considered a necessity. No it is not a cure all. If not used properly it can even be the cause of an accident and wind up in the picture collection at Summit Texaco. I bet alot of them are. If used properly it can prevent brake fade and help to prevent an accident.
If we decide to travel more in the mountains, I will definately install a PacBrake on my truck. The Ford owner is foolish in my opinion to decline the simple application of his butterfly valve with a cheap electronic control addition only. It would offer enough engine braking to help keep his service brakes cool on the downhills without having to lay out $1000 for a decent exhaust brake. Will he crash because he doesn't have one? He's increasing his odds but we can't say for sure. But we can't say for sure that if he get's one he won't crash. But if he were my friend I would encourage him to get one or the other "and" keep his service brakes in good shape.
Some just simply can't read. So I'll try to make it as simple as I can.
Yes an exhaust brake is an asset for mountain driving. It should be considered a necessity. No it is not a cure all. If not used properly it can even be the cause of an accident and wind up in the picture collection at Summit Texaco. I bet alot of them are. If used properly it can prevent brake fade and help to prevent an accident.
If we decide to travel more in the mountains, I will definately install a PacBrake on my truck. The Ford owner is foolish in my opinion to decline the simple application of his butterfly valve with a cheap electronic control addition only. It would offer enough engine braking to help keep his service brakes cool on the downhills without having to lay out $1000 for a decent exhaust brake. Will he crash because he doesn't have one? He's increasing his odds but we can't say for sure. But we can't say for sure that if he get's one he won't crash. But if he were my friend I would encourage him to get one or the other "and" keep his service brakes in good shape.
Uhh Steve, the crash thing was just meant to make you chuckle. Sorry, next time I'll put this with it. :-laf
Vail is in the mountains. You drive through Summit County to get there. Not having a Jake is not the end of the world. It's just a pain.
The time I looked in my mirror and saw a semi scream past me with his trailer brakes on fire is the day I became a believer in E-brakes.
Scott
P. S. Most of the pictures are really due to people thinking that the chain law was a suggestion.
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