Archived Help! Noise but no go.

[mr111]

I really need some help with this one. My truck has been doing this for a while intermittently, but it's to the point now where I am barely getting it to drive. I drive a stock 2001 4X4 diesel ram automatic. After it has been sitting a while, like all day at work or overnight, I start the truck it starts and runs fine. Until I try to drive. It makes reving noises that almost sound normal only slightly muffled and with a much slower response than normal, but the truck doesn't move. It has no power at all, to the point that I can't get it up to 25mph even if I gave it 20 minutes! I shut the truck off and then restart it right away and that usually solves the problem immediately. Sometimes I have to shut it off and restart it several times. It's been getting worse and worse. Once I get it going, I can stop and restart the truck often with no problems. Any ideas? I can only suspect the computer because of the restart fix, but how do I diagnose this? Has anyone else had similar problems?



Thanks a ton

Mark

 

[FourBarR]

have you checked for codes? turn key on off ,on off; 0n off , then leave on codes will show up in miles window. let us know if there are codes and what they are.

 

[mr111]

Sorry, I forgot to mention I get the following codes: P1693 from the pcu and P0216 from the Ecu. Fuel pressure issues. Where do I start? I hope it's not the injection pump. I just changed the fuel filter about 10000 miles ago. Also, it sure seems like it's switching into some kind of limp in mode until I turn the engine off and on to reset it. Thanks for any help you guys can give me.



Mark

 

[ToolManTimTaylor]

That 216 seems to me like the VP44 has taken the good ol' dirt nap. What IS your fuel pressure? (Alltho it doesn't matter now Unfortunatly)

 

[mr111]

How do I verify that the pump is bad? Why is it intermittent, I would think if the pump went bad it would always be bad. Where can I check the fuel pressure and can I just use a standard air pressure gauge. What should the pressure be? TIA



Mark

 

[Sticks]

How do I verify that the pump is bad? Why is it intermittent, I would think if the pump went bad it would always be bad. Where can I check the fuel pressure and can I just use a standard air pressure gauge. What should the pressure be? TIA



Mark

Two ways to verify pressure.

1. Buy a fuel pressre test gauge and connect it tot the schrader valve on the vp44. Try to get one with a long hose so you can tape the gauge to the windshield and get some driving pressures.
   
   
   
   Just bump the starter (do not start) and listen for the lp to be running. No sound, no pump. NOTE - just because the pump is running does not mean it is good. Put a catch pan under the front differential and open up the fuel filter drain valve. If the LP is OK, fuel will P O U R out of the drain, not dribble.

Really you need to buy a fuel pressure gague, along with an EGT and transmission Temp gauge to mount in your truck.



LP psi should be no lower than 8 psi at all times. Preferred is 15 psi at idle, 12 on the highway, and 10 WOT.

 

[mr111]

That will get me the low pressure side pump pressure. Are you saying that I can diagnose the high pressure pump with this pressure? In other words, at wide open throttle it should be 10 psi, if the high pressure pump is bad, it would be higher like 15 psi? The pump isn't always bad if that is the problem, it is only bad after sitting. Could this be because it warms up when not being cooled by the diesel fuel? Why would a couple of cycles do the trick? Could it be like a dead spot on a starter? Also, what sends a signal to trigger the fuel pressure code on the computer? Could this be bad and how can I check this sensor, maybe it's putting the computer into a limp in mode? Excuse my ignorance, I just want to find as much info before I plunk down $1750 for a vp44 or $850 to have it rebuilt. Any better deals? Is it a very involved swap? Thanks again, any help is greatly appreciated.



Mark

 

[ToolManTimTaylor]

There is an absolute TON of reading on the TDR about the VP44 and its mystical and sometimes uncanny death. Rule numero uno is to install a fuel pressure guage so you can keep an eye on pressures at all times.



Reason being is once inlet pressure TO the Vp goes south the timer starts ticking. Now without having the ability to monitor who knows how long inlet pressure has been absent. The 216 code is an internal timing error code. Once that code is thrown that is the sure fire signing of the death certificate. Yes some do not die immediatly but some throw it ans stop right then and there. The OEM lift pump (Supply if you will) are flat out Poop and I am sticking to that. Case in point I have seen a brand new out of the box pump die on one keystroke. That is why the advent of things like Pusher pumps , fass systems , mechanical pumps and things of the such have been allmost our OWN replacements as not to use the oem pumps. So find out if you need to do the same before the next unit suffers as well.



As for diag . . yes checking supply fuel pressure (Low if you will) will help in the diag as to WHY this is happening. SOMETIMES a dead lift pump will and can do what your rig is doing now and once replaced all is fine. That lil' carter pump has a big huge job description ... . ... Too bad it cannot read the discription page. :-laf Pumps PUSH ..... Not PULL. That same little pump is MUCH happier back at the tank on the framerail. That in itself is a different story. Do a search on



Pusher Pump



FASS



PE



Carter



Lift Pump





and of course



VP44





Hope this helps ya out a bit (Even tho I think I ramble ... . and most agreee TDR Tested ... . Big Brother approved LOL! )

 

[Sticks]

Pumps PUSH ..... Not PULL. That same little pump is MUCH happier back at the tank on the framerail.

AMEN brother!

 

[mr111]

I'm starting to suspect the low pressure feed pump. I've had problems exactly like this with in tank pumps going bad on gas vehicles. The VP44 could be sucking the fuel past the LP pump and giving me the strange, no power run condition. I haven't had a chance to hook up the fuel gauge, but now that I realize I could be cavitating and destroying the injection pump I'm getting really worried and will do it soon. Does this seem like a plausible scenario? I would kiss the ground if I didn't have to buy a new injection pump now. Thanks.

 

[ToolManTimTaylor]

Oh yes I guarantee that L. P is dead and damage to your VP has allready insued as you now are reflecting performance issues AND have a 216 code. I wouldn't drive her as it'l leave you for dead at the WORST possible time.

 

[JoshPeters]

I'm starting to suspect the low pressure feed pump. I've had problems exactly like this with in tank pumps going bad on gas vehicles. The VP44 could be sucking the fuel past the LP pump and giving me the strange, no power run condition. I haven't had a chance to hook up the fuel gauge, but now that I realize I could be cavitating and destroying the injection pump I'm getting really worried and will do it soon. Does this seem like a plausible scenario? I would kiss the ground if I didn't have to buy a new injection pump now. Thanks.

Gas and Diesel engines are MUCH different animals. From Diagnosis to driveability. Perfect example: A gas engine's pressurized fuel system from the tank to the fuel rail is the highist pressure the system sees. The VP44 injection system as well as my mechanical system, the pressure/suction tank to injection pump is just a feed. The true HIGH pressure comes between the VP44 or P7100 injection pumps. I don't know specifics on these pumps, but this pressure can be VERY high.



Welcome to the TDR, there is a WEALTH of knowlege on this board, world wide. We are more than willing to help! Ask away, no question is a stupid question. But DO feel free to use the search function!



Josh

 

[ToolManTimTaylor]

The true HIGH pressure comes between the VP44 or P7100 injection pumps. I don't know specifics on these pumps, but this pressure can be VERY high.

If memory serves me right 24,000 Psi range

 

[JoshPeters]

If memory serves me right 24,000 Psi range

:--)





Exactly!



Josh

 

[mr111]

Update. I took my truck into Diesel Injection services of Pittsburgh for help with diagnosis yesterday because I had very little free time recently and wanted to diagnose the problem before any more damage ensued. They have confirmed what everyone was suspecting. They said that the LP pump has 5 psi at WOT and that the code they pulled up on their cummins diagnostic equipment was a 368 which was a timing issue for the vp44. They said they have had another truck with a similar code and have gone down the path of the FSM recommended procedures for diagnostics and have come up with no resolution. They currently have a truck there with the same problems and will swap VP44s to verify. In the meantime, I called dodge and verified that both the vp44 and the lp pump are covered under the cummins 100,000 mile warranty for parts and labor. I have an appointment for tuesday at the dodge dealer. I intend to drive the truck until then unless someone thinks there is any concern with further damage (that won't be taken care of by the dealer). I hope the dealer will also want to swap injection pumps and lp pumps, but I have a feeling I will have a rollercoaster ride with them like I always do. Like (8) O2 sensers in a Neon before finally swapping the computer. Thanks for all the help. You guys were apparently dead on. Does anyone have any similar experiences with the code 368 or with the dealer warranty? Thanks again.

 

[Sticks]

So long as your truck is stock (READ - no aftermarket goodies - injectors, timing/fueling boxes, NOS or W/M injection, and occasionally air box) you should be OK.



DC has a new test for the LP. It is not based on pressure, rather flow rates. It can be at 2 psi, and meet their flow requirements, thus they will not replace the LP.



VP44 replacement in my experience requires more than just codes, other symptoms have to be evident, and happen when the Tech drives the truck around the parking lot.

 

[mr111]

There is no doubt that the tech at the dealer will experience the strange no power condition that plagues my truck when it is started on a hot day after sitting. He will not be able to pull into traffic until he shuts down and restarts the truck. Either they'll fix the problem, or he'll wreck my truck, one of the two. The tech at Diesel Injection definately experienced the problem and said that if the dealer is not willing to perform the repair, they will attempt to make a warranty claim. I guess we'll see what happens. I have my fingers crossed.



Thanks

Mark

 

[mr111]

Help!!!!! Dealer Problems

Took my truck to the dealer. They experienced the problems I was seeing and diagnosed the LP pump with being out of spec. BUT SAID THE WARRANTY IS VOID BECAUSE THERE WAS SEDIMENT IN THE FILTER AND THE TANK. I am trying to argue with them now. My argument is unless they can prove that the sediment caused the problems, then I have two mutually exclusive problems, a dirty tank and a bad pump that have nothing to do with one another. They want $1400 to clean the tank and lines and replace the LP pump, and said that all this may still not solve the problem. Can anyone give me advice? Has anyone been through this? TIA.



Mark

 

[Andy Redmond]

Most diesels end up with minor "sediment" in the tank. Much of it is often the plastic trailings from the tank itself. The fuel nozzle can drop some particles as it rubs the tank neck at fill ups. The fuel tank module has a mesh screen on the bottom. Anything that passed thru this will not hurt the lift pump and should be caught by the fuel filter before it enters the injection pump.



In defense of the dealer, if it has a few cups of "sand" or other crud in the tank, they may have a point. I would be talking to my fuel jobber. It is also very expensive to dispose contaminated fuel. They could pump it out into portable cans, then filter and reuse it. If it has algae in the fuel then shock it with a good bio-cide.



Call the 800 # in the back of your owners manual. Also ask for the service manager or a zone rep. to get involved.



The lift pump is a warrantied item. Cleaning the tank would not be, they are trying to hose you unless you do have goo/grim in the tank. I'd clean about three tanks for that price! I think you can source a new or used plastic fuel tank installed for less than they are quoting.



Stay after it!



Andy

 

[ToolManTimTaylor]

Most diesels end up with minor "sediment" in the tank.

asphaltines



Asphaltines usualy wind up in your tank from the Bulk fuel depot that sold its share off to your local station. VERY COMMON in the northern limates as opposed to the southern more densely populated areas. Fuel in higher populated areas consume fuel at a higher rate (Duh) and is not a common issue. The solids are the molecules that come out of the diesel when they combine and "Fall out" of suspension. They are basicly tiny bits of asphalt (Resides in pretty much all petroleum products) that when enough molecules stick together they become large enough to be seen. Basicly in short you got some long term stored fuel third hand. :{