Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) HELP Please truck no start

[Reno Guy]

Truck won't start, no crank. Heaters all come on, amp meter reads 12V, solenoids are all clicking, but starter will not crank. Tried to boost from a buddy in case my batteries are dead with no joy, primary battery is old, but secondary is brand new. Battery cables are tired but we disconnected and cleaned all terminals. Crawled under truck with a test light, power good to starter, and power at start signal wire (small one on starter I'm assuming goes to engage starter relay?) gets power when key is turned to crank.



Got truck to start by towing it and dumping the clutch in third gear. This is odd to me but while towing and dump the clutch, the engine turned at about 1200 RPM but was not firing?? Wouldn't start to run on its own until I "cranked" the engine then it sounded like the bendix would extend out and do the usual grind on a "Running engine" (too much noise to tell for sure if the starter actually tried to engage at this point though) but I'll assume the engine still would not start because the fuel shutoff was still closed ..... am I right on this?Then it would run on its own.



I'm thinking the starter is pooched but it is only a year old!!!



Any idea where to look??



Thanx

 

[SSkinner]

Dodge starters contacts can cause this when they go bad. But if

you cycle the key several times to heat up the contacts the starter will generally work. Also if the clutch pedal switch is bad vehicle will not crank over. If cycling the key works you'll need a starter.

 

[Reno Guy]

Just as an aside, trucks been slow to crank and start for the last few days, but I suspected the older possibly weak primary battery. You can feel the starter click when you try to crank. My buddy was wondering if the starter was shimmed properly, if the bendix teath jamb up and the bendix will not extend far enough, the starter will not crank.



Is it possible that I need to shim the starter???

 

[bmoeller]

primary battery is old, but secondary is brand new.

Unless you changed the wiring, both batteries are "primary". They are wired in parellel. + post to + post to starter, and - post to -post, to starter and ground.



It is best to replace both batteries at the same time. The old battery being weaker, will cause the new one to work harder, thus shortening its life.

power at start signal wire (small one on starter I'm assuming goes to engage starter relay?) gets power when key is turned to crank.

Yes.

the engine turned at about 1200 RPM but was not firing?? Wouldn't start to run on its own until I "cranked" the enginebut I'll assume the engine still would not start because the fuel shutoff was still closed ..... am I right on this?Then it would run on its own.

The key needs to be in the run position for it to stay running. If the shutdown solenoid is not pulled up, no fuel will get to the engine.



If the solenoid won't come up with the key, turn the key to the "run" position, and manually pull the solenoid rod up. If it stays up, then the "pull-in" relay for the solenid may be junk. There is a blue wire coming off one of the batteries. That's a fusible link. If it's blown, no juice goes to that relay. The relay itself, is the bigger of the 2, on the firewall above the brake booster/master cylinder.

 

[bmoeller]

Just as an aside, trucks been slow to crank and start for the last few days, but I suspected the older possibly weak primary battery. You can feel the starter click when you try to crank. My buddy was wondering if the starter was shimmed properly, if the bendix teath jamb up and the bendix will not extend far enough, the starter will not crank.



Is it possible that I need to shim the starter???

There aren't any shims, to my knowledge. At least not on my truck. If the one battery is weak, that in itself could prevent the starter from engaging properly (grinding). Being in Canada, the cold weather isn't helping you any. More parasitic load on the starter.

 

[Reno Guy]

Bmoeller,



The key was in the run possition throughout the "Tow Start" but there was no fire until I rotated the key to crank possition. Only then did it actually fire and run on its own. This is why I wondered if the shut down relay had to be Kicked to open to allow fuel flow.



That all said, if that fuel shut down solonoid or relay dosn't open, will that also not allow the starter to crank?



Sure appreciate the input.

 

[ABorchard]

The shut down solenoid has two coils, one lifts it up while the other holds it up. The lift up coil gets it's power from the starter motor while cranking, the hold up coil from having the key on.

Time to replace the bad battery, it's ruining the newer one.

Best if you can replace both at once.

 

[Reno Guy]

Guys,



I understand the batteries should be replaced at the same time, but the shop only had one large enough for the weather up here (need 1000+ cold crank amps or better) I've just procrastinated to this point. I do need to get the old one out. If the old one is totally useless, would it cause the truck to not turn over even with a boost?



Also, I even tried gently knocking the starter with a hammer with no joy. Thats bad for the insides of the starter anyway as it can damage the magnets so I'm told. I was trying to rattle a potrntially poor contact.



So back to the origonal problem, what do you feel is pooched, my 1. 5 year old starter? Or the bad battery even with a boost. Once the truck is running amp gage reads 16V

 

[ABorchard]

What's happening is your bad battery is draining the new one while parked, you may be better off just removing the bad battery and running on one. Might have more juice after parking then. Your meter can show 12 volts but still have low amps. Low amps while cranking will cause rapid wear on the starter contacts and brushes, if you keep it up you'll be looking at rebuilding or replacing the starter again soon. Might even need it already.



These trucks don't jump well with most jumper cables, can't get enough juice though them. I've had trouble even with heavy duty jumpers and have had to resort to letting the other truck charge the bad one or using two sets of jumper cables.

 

[Reno Guy]

ABorchard,



Thanx for that. I have thought of that, but I never considered the old battery basically equellising with the new one basically killing it as well during the shutdown hours. I'm actually going out to Wal-Mart this morning to pick up a new battery and throw it in.



Like you say I hope I haven't fried my new starter already, my understanding is if they don't get the full hit of current they need it shortens their life, makes them work too hard.



I'm used to calling batteries primary (driver side) and secondary (passenger side) from working on Aircraft and my "82 Ford Bronco (Fullsize)

 

[SSkinner]

Reno Guy,

If you wanted to try to see if you can get the truck running with the thought of a bad battery. You could use two vehicles one on each battery. Try to use 4 guage jumper cables if you have some handy or a big battery charger and a vehicle. This supplies the truck with enough amps to crank over fast enough to start. ABorchard is right on the bad battery draining down the strong battery. This will help prove the bad battery theory. The amp guage will show 16v when the heater isn't cycling because alternator is fill fielding to try and charge the low batteries.

 

[Reno Guy]

Hey good idea. I'm still getting rid of the old battery. Way too long overdue. My big concerne now is that I hope I haven't ruined a $400 starter over a $120 battery.



I sure appreciate the help from all of you. You can't put a price on others help and experience.

 

[Neibe]

Try this leave your foot off the clutch and turn the key if you don't hear a click then it is the starter if you hear a click then it is the clutch switch. My truck did the exact same thing you described and it was the starter. I was thinking it was either the starter or clutch switch I went though everything else in the electrical circuit and narrowed it down to those two things. The clutch switch almost never goes bad.

 

[Reno Guy]

Neibe,



Thanks for that as well. I have found that occasionally as well that I have to release the clutch and reapply to get the engine to crank. I had thought about the clutch switch as well but I'm not sure where it is for sure other than its somewhere on the pedal linkage. Is there a way as well to adjust this little beggar so I don't have to have the clutch pedal burried on the floorboards to crank over?

 

[bgilbert]

Don't know if the clutch switch is the same on your trucks as my 1st gen, but on ours we just cancel that clutch switch and just bypass the switch by cutting the wires to and from the switch and connecting them. This way you can start the truck by reaching in through the window. Just will have to make sure its not in gear each time you crank it over.

 

[Neibe]

There is suppose to be wires going to the switch that you can unplug and just put a jumper between the contacts to bypass the circuit. If you look under the dash at the push rod on the clutch lever you will see this switch. But like I said if you leave your foot off the clutch and try to turn it over with key and you don't hear a click that means the switch is working and has interrupted the start circuit. Then it would be the starter. The starter will click if the contacts are bad. I'm betting money it is the starter.

 

[K5IP]

But, even if it is a starter problem,

You probably do not need a new starter. I doubt that low voltage has done anything to hurt it. If it still does not work with a new battery. The contacts are replacable.

There is lots of info on this. Do a search.

 

[Neibe]

Another way to check the starter is to run jumper cables to the small post on the starter if the starter cranks it isn't the starter. Make sure you have it in neutral when you do this. Go right from the battery to the starter with the jumper cables.

 

[LDPetersen]

I was at a horse sale and guy with a 96'ctd had the same problem. 1 battery was totally dead . We unhooked that one and jumped the good one and it started up just fine. Parding lot fix with lots of helpful bystanders. Larry.

 

[Reno Guy]

Well guys, the jury is in as it seems :{ I installed the new battery and charged up the other new one as well, also hit it all with a 18Amp boost/charger unit and no joy. All relays and solenoids are clicking when they are supposed to. Starter solenoid is trying but not cranking. My 1. 5 Yr old starter is pooched from the looks of things. Good news is NAPA is providing one under warranty (thank god, their $400+bucks) The folks at NAPA are great here, ordering it this morning, picking it up Tues. at 8:30AM, should be running by 10:00AM and returning my "nemesis" to my driveway.



Also having a really bad oil leak between power steering pump and vacuum pump replaced. I'm running AMS Oil and its far too expensive to be doing dust control on our streets.



I hope nothing else goes South on me this year, I'm up to $9000. 00 since Jan '05 and I still need new rubber for my duallies!



Thanks again for all of your input, reassuring if nothing else that I'm on the right track if nothing else and that I'm not out in left field chasing my tail. Very much appreciated



Scott