Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Help with Removing of a NV-4500 5spd manual transmission

[CEHughes]

I am removing my 5sp manual transmission - Let me start by saying where I am at this point. The transmission is ready to drop, but it doesn't quite fit coming out. Meaning that I can not slide back enough to release from engine without hitting floor inside the cab. Can I and do I have to remove shift assembly before it will drop out? If not what is the trick?



Secondly, let me explain why I am removing it. Has anyone had the clutch get stuck engaged. It was eating up slave cylinders 3 in 150k miles, when I replaced it the 2nd time, the next day it was going down the hwy at 75 and the gear was gone. No noise, no shutter, just gone. It will shift into any gear but will not engage. I can feel in in-balance while it is idling? Any ideas, I guess I will know when I get it out, although I may not know how it got to that point, we shall see.



Thirdly, Once I have it out that far, are there any recommendations that it would make sense to do now. It has not been touched in 150k miles, can I do some PM on the 5th gear issue or something else?



One last item, Recommendations on a replacement clutch assembly. 75% of driving it is towing – we have a 36’ gooseneck horse trailer, weighs in about16k.



Thanks for any and all advise - Charles

 

[BLively]

oh ya, you are gonna have to take off the shifter housing for sure! also, if you can lift the front of the motor a little it will help getting that thing out of there...

 

[GCroyle]

Common Possibles.

Charles,



I agree, tilt the engine to clear the floor. I also recommend taking the trans out seperate from the bellhousing, but I believe others do it as a unit. But installing as a unit give you an opourtunity to damage the dowel sleeve alignment holes.



Why is it getting stuck "engaged" or locking up? (Can we clarify please, pedal up = engaged, pedal down = released or dis-engaged) If is is getting stuck in the release stroke I would look very closely at the fork to ball stud to guide tube relationship or action. These are not noted for guide tube wear that some other transmissions are noted for. These wear symptoms would also create a high release load = early slave cylinder wear. Action for release should be smooth and not have any rough spots or transitions is it. Remember, the way the bearing moves or responds to your input is how the clutch will act, it is getting a signal and responding. You cannot cleanup a worn guide tube surface with your hoof files, needs to be full size. I'm not a trans expert, but the 5th gear problem will never be any cheaper to fix than it will be when you get the trans out, I highly recommend taking care of it.



Do you have a 4X4? If so, the low range can be used to help with any engagement issues that the more agressive friction material discs have for manuvering, backing up etc.



Other common issues to look for, wiggly (up/down) input shaft, some slight movement is normal, lots of movement, bearing wear, have it inspected when you get 5th gear checked. Dowel sleeves, two one on each side of the adpator plate, MUST BE INPLACE these align engine to input shaft of transmission.

 

[jhoughton]

You definantly have to pull the shift tower off. Once off it should come right out. I switched to an NV5600 some time ago and had no issues removing and replacing as an assembly, minus the shift tower. Also I pull close to that weight and have gone heavier a time or two and have a South Bend Con O FE and have had no issues at all.

 

[CEHughes]

Thank you for your responses, I think I will go ahead and split the bell housing, it may make it easier to see what is going on when removing.



The truck does have 3. 55 in it so takeoff from dead stop must be hard on that clutch, which if I have to manuver a lot I put it into 4low, but not on an everyday basis.



Yes engaged, I mean clutch in, so it will not move regardless of what gear it is in.



Gary thanks for the details on what to look for once it is dropped and get back to the board if I am still stumped.



Can anyone point to the process for the 5th gear issue, what needs to be replaced and if there is a good aftermarket retailer to purchase the replacement parts with.



Thanks again for the info.

 

[BTighe]

look into a 2 low kit too. the gearing of 4low without the bucking, its cool!

 

[GCroyle]

https://www.turbodieselregister.com...-gear-nut-who-makes-looking-instructions.html



CEHughes, take a look at this one, it should help.

 

[AndyMan]

CHECK THOSE DOWEL SLEVES!!



Gary's guys put a Zoom VT clutch in my truck and one of the things that was found was a missing dowel sleeve.



I've had two south bends and have nothing bad at all to say about them. However, I've got one of the new ZVT clutches and LOVE it.



Call Gary, he'll tell you all about it.

 

[CEHughes]

Thanks again to those who have helped. I have it all out, wasn't able to get back to it until tonight.



Bottom line - the disc was in about 25 pieces!



I have posted pics of the clutch parts, you can take a look, but it looks like it just flew apart. I am not sure how thick the plate starts out to be, but it is now only . 29".



See pics here -

#ad




I assume that I should have the flywheel re-surfaced??? I know this is typical in a car, what about this one?



Thanks Charles

 

[CEHughes]

Lets try those pics again



Picasa Web Albums - Charles - Dodge Ram Clutch

 

[AndyMan]

Here's some pics of the R&R on my 2nd gen. Mebbe you'll get some tips from the pics

Picasa Web Albums - Andy - Perfection Cl...

 

[rkressg]

If you tow that heavy, you might want to consider a DD clutch. My truck eats clutches (6-speed) (I am on #6 or 7), and the only clutch I have had last longer than 1 year was a SBC-3850-12CB. I am currently on my second SBC DD Clutch (3rd SBC Clutch). They shift smooth and are very quiet (compared to other clutches I have tried).
-Rich

 

[GCroyle]

Flywheels: To resurface or not to resurface?

This is a topic that has a lot of old tales told about it, from not required, to get the DA with 80 grit, to Scotch Brite, to brake lathes, to commercial F/W resurfacing grinders to replacement.



Charles, its a little hard to tell, but I suspect that your was resurfaced already, I noticed radial lines that look like resurfacing, but you would need to clean up the F/W and look at the edges to see if it has lathe tool lines or cup stone grinding lines.



Resurfacing has been the common practice for a bunch of years, it has served us well and generally continues to serve us, but with anything there are other sides to the story.



Hot spots are a normal byproduct of using a clutch or brake system. In the case of these F/W's, when they grow a hot spot it is a doozie and will not disappear by grinding, it still exists in the F/W and all you did was take the top of it off, kinda like a wart! We have done this and recorded the data with a hand held hardness tester before and after resurfacing at the same spots, it does not go away, it is deep into the casting. These hot spots (martensite) are created from extreme heat and they actually expand and take up more space, they become high spots and they grow back and they can result in chatter with the installation of a new clutch. We have the data.



If you choose an aggressive friction material for your new clutch, this is not quite the same problem as if you select for smooth engagement, organic, fiberglass based facings.

 

[AndyMan]

We have done this and recorded the data with a hand held hardness tester before and after resurfacing at the same spots, it does not go away, it is deep into the casting.

This is correct. I have seen the flywheel they did that with, with my own two beaty little eyes.



IMHO, you've got the transmission out, for longevities sake, go ahead and replace the flywheel and the clutch while you've got it all apart.

 

[CEHughes]

Flywheel

Thanks guys for the advise. I will plan to just replace, its just money and you can't take it with you... .

 

[CEHughes]

5th Gear issue again

It appears from numerous posts that the 5th gear was not nearly the issue after 98. 5 and that simply replacing the gear and nut does not resolve the issue that derives with the main shaft.



If it is still tight and does not show excessive wear - should I leave it alone? Am I understanding the issue correctly? Bottom line is that eventually when it has a major failure I will reaplce it with an aftermarket modified 6spd.



Thanks Charles

 

[CEHughes]

Clutch Disc Plate

If anyone looked at the pictures above - is it common for the disc plate to blow apart in such a manner? If not does these lead to some likely caused of failure - I know that Gary had some good insight, but didn't know if the pics narrowed down any ideas.



I will probably replace it with one of the kits that are on Gary's link - price seems very fair for a better than OEM clutch.



Thanks Charles

 

[AndyMan]

I can't see the pics here at work, so I can't comment.



I will say however that I'm thorougly satisfied with my Zoom clutch.

 

[GCroyle]

Disc Failure Analysis

Charles,



It is tough to tell what happened to your disc without seeing it up close and having a history on the truck. This is a brief look at list for disc issues, and it is not a complete list, it focuses on total damper failure.



1. Friction material failures, normal wear and tear, plus any excessive heat from hot rod driving the truck. Slipping = heat = reduction in total disc friction material life. Once the clutch is locked up, nail it!



2. Concentric mis-alignment of input shaft to crankshaft. If the input shaft is not concentric to the crank, the disc will oscillate and try to work with two different centerlines, recipe for failure. Common signs, excessive wear at the hub pilot of the disc. Common sources, pilot bearing problems, missing dowel sleeves, brute force installation damaging aluminum dowel sleeve holes.



3. Angular mis-alignment think of a foreign object between the engine and transmission, input shaft is at an angle and rubs on the splined hub, usually creates burrs on the hub splines. Common sources, pinched wires, brackets, underbody grunge between mating surfaces, flywheel not running true.



4. Lugging. Driving at a tall gear when you should be in a lower gear. Just because the CTD has the power doesn't mean the powertrain is happy in 5th when 4th or 3rd would be the correct choice. We installed a 6 speed in a 7. 3L that was one of our test vehicles (privately owned) they blamed our clutch(it had a vibration in ONE gear only) it finally came out that they had a driver that didn't like a handshaker and basically refused to downshift if they could keep it running in a tall gear, destroyed the trans.



5. Hanging the trans during install, don't do it or allow it to happen! It can destroy the damper from the weight of the trans ripping the damper apart.



Facings show heat and drivers theory about clutch operation. The alignment issues are introduced with careless installations or lack of attention to detail.



Charles, if you have any other questions, feel free to call.

 

[CEHughes]

Clutch failure

Thanks again Gary for your insightfullness. I guess this could be a simple failure due to mileage and heavy load.



We bought the truck with only about 40k on it, so I assume that it had not been touched yet and it did not appear at the time. Since then I have done 0 to it except change gera oil in the transmission... . The truck is respected when driven (not hot rodded) and we have both always driven standard tanny's and know what will heat them up and what won't.



Worst abuse is backing with heavy load with 3. 55s, unless I go into 4 low, you have to ride the clutch. I like the idea of the 2low option, but not sure how involved it would be.



Anyway I will check play in main shaft and will check for any other unusual wear indicators, but if I can get 200k unstead of 150k out of my next one I will be fine with that.



Thanks again