Hemi's in 1 tons

[Phil Howell]

Originally posted by Steve M

On the steepest upgrade going through cherico Summit (I 10 in Socal Desert) . . .

Ahhh, Chiriaco Summit. Some of the best jeeping around is just south of I-10 there. I spent many years as a member of the old Fast Camel 4WD club exploring, rockcrawling and enjoying the desert in the Chiriaco (or Shavers' to you REAL old timers) Summit area.



Sorry for the thread highjack, but Steve struck a chord. :-laf

 

[Turbo_Bob]

I cant see the logic with the Hemi in 2500/3500 trucks. There peak torque and H/P are too high in the RPM band, so you have to wing it to get into the power band for towing, which gas milage will suffer.

My last truck a 96 2500 V-10 (488 CI) curb weight 5600 lbs. has a peak TQ of 425 @ 2800 rpm and peak HP of 296 @ 4000 rpm. Those numbers are well below that of the new Hemi like a 1000 RPM. And I got 12. 5 mpg and 9. 9 mpg towing. To be in peak TQ I would have to be out of OD.

Now my new truck a 03 3500 HO diesel (359 CI) curb weight 6600 lbs. has peak TQ of 555 @ 1400 rpm and peak HP of 305 @ 2900 rpm. I get 21 mpg and 15 towing with the new truck weighing a 1000 more pounds than the 96 and I can stay in OD @ 2100 rpm = 70 mph.

The trailer and weight has not changed nor has my speed or routes changed.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Resale Value

A few months back when I was getting ready to trade or sell my '01 for my new '03, I spent a lot of time plugging numbers into Kelly BB and NADA for the value of my '01.



Just for fun after pricing my truck, I left everything the same except I selected the 360 V8 and 5-speed. When I hit "recalculate" the value dropped from $18,800 to right at $12,000. That is well over a $6500 drop in resale (this was Trade-in Value) just for not having the Cummins! So saving $5000 to begin by not going Cummins will ultimately cost you net $1500+ in the end on resale. Not to mention all that extra fuel you burned!



Vaughn

 

[hammersley]

The one thing folks

fail to mention regarding Gas vs Diesel is wear and tear. An engine only has so many revolutions in it. Each time it fires, it wears out a little bit! Having to run at 50% or more revolutions to do the job - is one of the reasons gas engines wear out faster.

 

[wxman]

Re: Resale Value

Originally posted by Vaughn MacKenzie

A few months back when I was getting ready to trade or sell my '01 for my new '03, I spent a lot of time plugging numbers into Kelly BB and NADA for the value of my '01.



Just for fun after pricing my truck, I left everything the same except I selected the 360 V8 and 5-speed. When I hit "recalculate" the value dropped from $18,800 to right at $12,000. That is well over a $6500 drop in resale (this was Trade-in Value) just for not having the Cummins! So saving $5000 to begin by not going Cummins will ultimately cost you net $1500+ in the end on resale. Not to mention all that extra fuel you burned!



Vaughn

Vaughn, that's going to take some wind out of the "you've got to drive a lot to justify a diesel" argument, isn't it?

 

[DPKetchum]

Look a blue book value of 'add' for diesel on a Ford/Chevy/Dodge comparison. I think it might surprise you.

 

[Prairie Dog]

My experience is similar to Vaughns. BB on my 93 was $6k and I sold it for $8k. BB on the same truck with a gasser was $3600! What a great investment the Cummins is!

 

[Cummins Cowboy]

the few guys that advocate gas engines are off base. I have pulled trailers around alot most not real heavy around 6k. I have never found a gas engine that will even compare to a cummins, even my old first gen. you have to beat on a gas engine to get it to do its thing. I was sold on diesels and how they seemingly effortlessly pull heavy loads. I pull a trailer around town and on the highway I have pulled similar trailers with gas engines of every kind and even with a 190 horse vortec 4. 3 chevy v6 mileage was usually around 6. 5 average, truck was 2wd single cab prolly around 5k in weight, My 7k+ 4x4 cummins gets no less than about 13 mpg in this same scenerio. I drive 2000 miles a month so this relates to about a 250$ a month savings in fuel alone. Some boys at my old work thought how bad this chevy dually we had a work was and it "pulled just as good as the dodge" It had glass packs and made lots of noise. everyone was convinced that the chevy dually was the better puller and lots faster. well me and a certain stock '95 dodge cummins put that to rest one day pulling exact same trailers from stop light to stop light I totally wipped it not even close

 

[Steve M]

Back in '94, my F-150 reg cab 2wd 300cid I6 with 5spd/3. 55 towed our 4,400 lb travel trailer with very little effort. It got 18mpg empty and 12-13mpg towing. I could use 5th gear on level highway. I bought my 1st Dodge Cummins in '95. With 160hp and 400ft/lbs, I wasn't real impressed. I got the same mileage but the '95 Cummins was a slug. I had a hard time convincing the Mrs why I traded a $14k truck for a $28k truck that didn't pull better or get better mileage and was noisy as all help. She finally accepted that it's a novelty and four Dodge Cummins trucks later she's finally impressed with towing performance and mileage. Her boss pulls his 25ft Proline boat all over the state with a 2500 5. 9V8 auto. It does a great job. Her brother pulls his 5th wheel with his F-250 V-10 gasser. His also does a great job. They have the advantage of gear reduction while I have to stay in O/D at 65-70mph or slow down to grab a lower gear. The HEMI will easily put more torque to the road than my standard output Cummins. Torque at the flywheel is great. Torque at the rear wheels gets and keeps you moving.

 

[Prairie Dog]

I once test drove a short bed F150 EFI 300cid six with a five speed. It couldn't even maintain 60 mph on the freeway w/o gearing down to 4th. You must have had a really good one because any diesel made by anybody would have out towed that slug.

As a final note, the Hemi cannot put more torque to the road - it just doesn't make as much. It will likely out run a Cummins in a drag race but it wont come close to pulling like it.

Just my . 02.



Scotty

 

[TCDiesel]

steveM A gas motor should pull that wieght,but put 10,000 behind IT. Your cummins would out perform the gasser.

 

[Turbo Tim 1]

My fathers got a 92 ford f-150 x-cab short box 2 wheel drive and I've pulled a 5,000 lb trailer over Mendon mountain in Vermont with it but I crested the top at about 15 mph ( truck was only a few years old and had less than 40,000 miles at the time). On the other hand I pulled a 3000 lbs equipment trailer with a Farmall Super C, sickle bar mower, 2 bottom plow, a complete 9 foot fisher plow and a bunch of scrap metal over the same mountain, figure I was probably over 16,000 lbs total, crested the top at 60 mph could've been more but the speed limit is only 50. Now granted my old 93 with the slush box couldn't have done 60 but I bet it would've been at least double of the f-150 and with alot more weight. I've got to good with prairie dog, the 300's are dogs, they are pretty durable but they are still dogs.

 

[Steve M]

"the Hemi cannot put more torque to the road "



At 70mph I can't lock out O/D, the HEMI can.

HEMI advertised torque.

375ft/lbs X 4. 10= 1537ft/lbs at the rear wheels.

My SO Cummins advertised torque.

460ft/lbs X . 69 X 4. 10=1301ft/lbs at the rear wheels.

A HO Cummins adverised torque.

555ft/lbs X . 69 X4. 10=1570ft/lbs at the rear wheels.

A V10 advertised 455ft/lbs torque.

455 X 4. 10=1865ft. lbs at the rear wheels.



With O/D locked out and a 4. 10 rear end, the gas engine is running close to it's peak torque. Although sucking gas like a raging river, it's making torque through gear reduction. It can even grab second gear for even more torque through gear reduction if it needs too and run up close to peak HP. Drivetrain losses apply to both as well as less than advertised power output.



I wouldn't consider pulling 10,000 lbs with an F150. But the F-250 with 6. 8L V-10 pulls my brother in law's 5th wheel with plenty of power, very quietly, and is only 2mpg less than my Cummins on the highway.

The 300 I6 in my F-150 was anything but a slug. That was a darn good engine. I can't believe Ford discontinued it. It's what lead me to an I6 diesel in the Dodge in '95 before I knew much about Cummins. If I could have bought an F250 with a B in it, I'd still be in a Ford.

 

[TCDiesel]

SteveM You"re numbers look good under most circumstance,I have had TWO 2001 dodge V-10s, TWO 1997 V-10s, One 1993 Chev 6. 5 diesel what a disappointment ,It did get good mileage about 18,ONE 1989 460 FORD 4 SPEED. None of these can out perform my cummins. Check my post in Level 6 wastegate Question. I WILL NEVER BUY A V-8 DIESEL AGIAN. I will buy a gasser first.

The mileage on my V-10s pulling my end dumpers was about 6. 5, Truck alone was 11. THE cummins 12. 8 with dumpers,Truck alone 16.

 

[Steve M]

I hear you on the GM V8 diesel. Don't you mean 6. 2L? I never even considered one. But you must not have been too disappointed with the V10 if you bought three more. Other than gas mileage, they'll pull with the best of them. Of course the V10 won't compete with a chipped Cummins. I never implied that. But I was around in the days when diesels weren't an option yet. We pulled some big trailers with gas engines.

Most people mistakingly think they're hurting the engine if they let it rev or they think it's weak and straining something awful if the automatic downshifts and runs the rpm up to 4,000 plus. It's not weak or hurting anything. Peak hp with a GM 454 is at 4200 rpm. If that's where it needs to be to pull the load up the mountain, it's no different than mine running 2900 up the same grade. Difference is, I have to slow to 60mph to do it.

For some reason ya'll sound defensive about it like it's an insult to the diesel that a gas engine will pull a big 5th wheel right along side a diesel. I'm in my fourth Dodge Cummins. I like 'em. My brother in law likes his V10. He has no trouble pulling his 5th wheel anywhere we decide to go. I have no problem with that.

 

[TCDiesel]

Steve M I agree 100 % My V-10s never had any Repair out side of maintenance. You are right about the mileage when GAS was $1. 89 around here at peak season I $2. 000. 00 a month fuel Bills,Going from job-site to landfill.

Steve m I check my records it was 1993 6. 5.

 

[DPKetchum]

I posted tis earlier. I had MANY customers with Dodge V10s and saw VERY few problems with them. Handled a NUMBER of the them with 150k plus and ran the same as 30k. For folks who only pulled 4/5/6/thousand miles a year if that ,you could'nt beat them. $4000 less then the Cummins and stock HAD a LITTLE more TORQUE. Had customers who traded off V10s for Cummins and most comments were YEA better mileage but you SURE CAN"T PASS on two lane like that V10 did.

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by DPKetchum

I posted tis earlier. I had MANY customers with Dodge V10s and saw VERY few problems with them. Handled a NUMBER of the them with 150k plus and ran the same as 30k. For folks who only pulled 4/5/6/thousand miles a year if that ,you could'nt beat them. $4000 less then the Cummins and stock HAD a LITTLE more TORQUE. Had customers who traded off V10s for Cummins and most comments were YEA better mileage but you SURE CAN"T PASS on two lane like that V10 did.

I got $8500 off on my 2002 CTD. It's all in what you pay, I doubt I would of gotten that much off on a V10. You are the first person I've ever heard say nice things about the V10, glad to hear that it had some happy customers.

 

[TCDiesel]

Pit Bull My V10s were awesome, IT WAS THE PUMP THAT KILLED "EM".

 

[DPKetchum]

They(V10s)got BETTER mileage then any 454 or 460 and OUT PULLED them by far. Out lasted them also if I remember my service days working at a G. M. dealer. Saw lots of Low mileage 454s (150K and less)much less sometimes knocking/sucking oil etc. Most 460 fords lasted longer but always seemed gutless to me. V10S ran smooth,low rpm and pull like a elephant. Had lots of yard/tree/boat company's using them with HIGH mileage and no oil consumption ran good etc. Only a $400 option over a 360.