High pressure line leak-down on 2003

[Gordon Maney]

A friend has a 2003 and I am not familiar with that fuel injection system as I have a 2001.

His dealer tells him that his #3 cylinder line leaks down and they want to replace his high pressure lines at a cost of $1,200. They think that will fix it but seem candid in admitting they are not certain.

If this is a so-called common rail, does it make sense that one cylinder's fuel circuit could leak down, and not the others? Must this line set be replaced in one assembly?

Any thoughts here? Thank you.

 

[cerberusiam]

It is a common rail. It does have high pressure lines. Without more info its pure speculation what is wrong. what the dealer is trying to do, and whether it makes sense.



About the only thing I can think of is they want to replace the cross over tubes in the head because the rail pressure is not holding or coming up fast enough.



Thats a radical solution unless the injectors have been in an out many times or they are seeing some problem with the tubes. A lot of times clenaing up the ends and retorqing solves the problem.



Again, without more info this is a HUGE guess at what the real story is.

 

[Gordon Maney]

It is a common rail. It does have high pressure lines. Without more info its pure speculation what is wrong. what the dealer is trying to do, and whether it makes sense.

About the only thing I can think of is they want to replace the cross over tubes in the head because the rail pressure is not holding or coming up fast enough.

Thats a radical solution unless the injectors have been in an out many times or they are seeing some problem with the tubes. A lot of times clenaing up the ends and retorqing solves the problem.

Again, without more info this is a HUGE guess at what the real story is.

To the best of my knowledge the injectors have never been out. They have tightened/torqued the high pressure fittings, I believe was the language they used, twice. Each time if helped with a starting problem [excessive cranking to start], but then the problem returned.

Is it even plausible to say #3 leaks down? I don't see how such a diagnosis could be made. Is there a way?

 

[Nyoest]

There is a problem with the tubes coming loose and needing to be retorqued. If ran long enough it could erode the sealing surfaces. But I doubt that's what the trouble is.

I cannot in my feeble mind figure out how they know #3 is leaking down. You can cap it and get low return rates and better rail pressure but how do you test for leaking?

We need more info and your buddy needs a second quote.

 

[Gordon Maney]

There is a problem with the tubes coming loose and needing to be retorqued. If ran long enough it could erode the sealing surfaces. But I doubt that's what the trouble is.

I cannot in my feeble mind figure out how they know #3 is leaking down. You can cap it and get low return rates and better rail pressure but how do you test for leaking?

We need more info and your buddy needs a second quote.

I'm with you there.

All I know about common rail I learned by reading tonight. It seems the entire system would bleed down, not just one line.

 

[cerberusiam]

Is it even plausible to say #3 leaks down? I don't see how such a diagnosis could be made. Is there a way?

I cannot in my feeble mind figure out how they know #3 is leaking down.

If you cap #3 and the problem goes away plus the rail pressure holds it could be inferred #3 is "leaking" down. While th temrinology may be flawed, the concept is correct.



The dealer also need sto run return flow test with and without the suspect inector circuit capped to see if they can further narrow it down.

 

[Gordon Maney]

If you cap #3 and the problem goes away plus the rail pressure holds it could be inferred #3 is "leaking" down. While th temrinology may be flawed, the concept is correct.

The dealer also need sto run return flow test with and without the suspect inector circuit capped to see if they can further narrow it down.

By cap #3, you are meaning cap the injector end of the line?

 

[TCDiesel]

I get a kick out of every thread that treats CR Injectors as individual's the concept is so mis-applied. . If your buddies truck has hard start condition contact us. . I will walk him to the correct procedure to narrow it down... I will not post such info on the forum I am tried of the key-stroke kings... that only complicate the matter with every stroke.

 

[Nyoest]

By cap #3, you are meaning cap the injector end of the line?

You remove the injector line and cap the rail on that single port for the injector you are testing.

 

[cerberusiam]

By cap #3, you are meaning cap the injector end of the line?

The rail end of the circuit is the one capped. As was pointed out its only part of the equation to determine exactly where the loss is. That will only tell you there is an issues between the rail and the tip of the injector, not exactly what the problem is.



I get the feeling the dealer is avoiding the obvious source of the problem being the injector itself, and, wanting milk everything they can first. They have the tools and the test procedures to determine the source. Whether or not they have the experience and knowledge to apply it correctly is always the question.

 

[Gordon Maney]

Am I correct; there is no reason why you couldn't replace just on injector?

 

[TCDiesel]

NO just replacing 1 Injector will just cause heartache and cost $$$$ and the time lost cannot be recovered... Some attempt it but ,,,as time goes by they all start to fail..... Of coarse there is the exception . . its not the rule.

 

[CKelley1]

it is most likely the injector but first losen the #3 injector line at the injector with a 3/4 inch wrench next tighten the injector tube nut 1 think it is 1 1/16 it is 37 ft lbs re tighten the injector line. two symtoms of a bad injector you will see more soot on tailpipe and truck and if you take a heat gun and check temp on the exhaust manifold on start up the #3 port will get hotter and faster than the others. as stated it is best to change all six. they have improved the bodys of the new injectors. get new ones not rebuilt so that you get the new style. there was a shortage of them they had 44,000 on backorder but they are trickling in now. the cost is about $390 a injector. i have my own shop and the miller special tools to do my own leakdown test. on the first 03 injector change it took me 8 hours i had to make one socket and i used 4 torque wrenches to make it go faster. if your not mechanically inclined or have a good shop i would get a good shop to do it.

 

[cerberusiam]

Am I correct; there is no reason why you couldn't replace just on injector?

Absolutely no reason one cannot replace a single injector. If the rest are within spec there no reason too replace because what you get will be the same spec or worse.



Hotshot friends are running these trucks to 400-500k on stock injectors and just replacing the ones that go bad, either coil or bodies with no issues. Some that have bought into the hype about needing a whole set are still fighting problems. Not all but enough to suggest if the OE's are still good you are better off with them.



Anybody telling you that a whole set is needed without extensive testing and some solid proof is only padding their pockets or simply does not have a clue. There are instances to replace a set but like I said, that takes testing and some solid numbers every injector is so far out of spec they will cause a problem.



The optimal thing would be do a whole set of guaranteed flowed and tested injectors. If you have the $3-4k to do that and its a recoverable investment then great. Otherwise, its not a must.

 

[CKelley1]

you maybe right on this but when i did the leakdown test on two different 03's after i capped off the bad one i still had flow that exceeded specks. the 03 and early 04 injectors do not hold up like our 04. 5 up do. that is why there was 44,000 of them on backorder. he can do as we did and cap off the #3 and redo the leak down test and see if it is only #3 but with the poor injectors and my experience with these two i still think the best thing to do is to replace all 6 with the new body style.

 

[cerberusiam]

you maybe right on this but when i did the leakdown test on two different 03's after i capped off the bad one i still had flow that exceeded specks.

Sure, that falls into the one of the cases where replacing all may be the needed thing to do. But as you said, you capped one and tested again then came to the conclusion the possibility of the rest having excessive wear.



You didn't just assume they were all bad when you started having problems and thats my point. A little due diligence and there is solid info to base the decision on.



AFAIK, the bodies 03 to 06 are exactly the same, internally, externally and composition wise. AFAIK, the newer harder bodies still use the same basic internals that wear out and that was not changed. The bodies generally are not the problem if you don't run excessive pressure. The ball and pintle seats and bypass orfices are the areas that erode over time and with high solids in the fuel. Those are not part of the body and are replaceable, with varying results. Pretty sure most of the failures in the 03-04 trucks are simply because they have been around longer and have more engine time on them. The 04. 5 injectors do not seem to perform any better in adverse conditions. They will still wear and require replacement in less than adequate time frames.



I think what the OP is asking is if it functionally OK to replace 1 injector rather than the whole set at once. The answer to that is yes. There is no requirement from the engine or ECU that injectors NEED to be replaced as a set. The bottom line is if: if it fixes the problem then it is acceptable.





On a side note, this injector "thing" is starting to get out of hand. With the lack of new units and the costs going up, too many vendors are looking to take advantage of the unsuspecting that just want their truck to run correctly. I get calle dor PM'ed at least once per month about vendors that refuse to sell one injector, preach doom and gloom and catastrophic failure if a whole set is not used, and are simply abusing the customers sensibilities by calling them too stupid to understand.



It's a SCAM! Functionally, there is no problem replacing one or 2 or three, no more or less chance of failure of the others or the engine, and NO correlation between single injector replacement as opposed to set replacement.



In fact, there is some pretty good info and enough experience suggesting that some of these reman sets being pushed are far WORSE than used OE. The only protection is enough knowledge and understanding to make an informed decision, to recognize a sales ploy when it is presented, to make a good decision based on individual circumstances.



Ok, off my soap box and back to our regularly scheduled thread.

 

[TCDiesel]

CERB... . What do you do when YOU sell 1 or 2 injectors to someone then He burns down his motor and blames or take action against the seller. . When in fact the other(s) are the cause? I don't how many times I must deal weekly with the Poor advice form the NET... YOU dispense advice like your the coach in the game... When in fact your just in the seats. . Post your Phone # and start selling the Product and support. . it won't take long before you start singing a different keystroke.

 

[cerberusiam]

CERB... . What do you do when YOU sell 1 or 2 injectors to someone then He burns down his motor and blames or take action against the seller. . When in fact the other(s) are the cause? I don't how many times I must deal weekly with the Poor advice form the NET... YOU dispense advice like your the coach in the game... When in fact your just in the seats. . Post your Phone # and start selling the Product and support. . it won't take long before you start singing a different keystroke.

Not quite sure what you posts accomplish here Todd, other than a total lack of usable information and some rather harsh critique of your fellow members. Again, you want to turn every thread into a battle instead of providing some useful content.



What bothers you the most: somebody having a different opinion\experience than you, or the temerity to actually articulate said opinion\experience?



As far as how to run your business effectively, my consulting rates are $250\hr at your home site. You pay all travel and per diem expenses to and from your site. I don't do have a help number and I don't have a commercial web site, but, I have been instrumental in helping Fortune 500 companies effectively use these very things to meet business goals.





This public service announcement has been brought to you by TCDiesel, now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

 

[TCDiesel]

NO you need to read again... YOU only provide enough info to be DANGEROUS... Sorry your fee's are overrated by $250/hr... . As far as announcements IF your that great why are NOT coming up with thread(s) on your products? ... Another Post by Cerb the great... Your wordly wisdom is certainly worthless as far as I'm concerned. . By the Way MY phone #s are public... And in most cases We or I dispense valuable info at NO. . Charge. . We are NOT like YOU in any form way or Matter. . YOU consult for YOUR own Adavntage. . YOUR Posting states that (fact) O answer this Mr Consultant ,At what sea level does ambient Temperature effect cylinder temperature.



Members . . Cerb is why the boards are losing credibility. . Vendors and seller are fed up with the keystroke kings... forum owners are losing the AD $ . . My professional advice at NO charge to members and guest . . Take (almost) everything you read (Boards) and measure the source... . My Bank account does thank Cerb for the increase of capital it regularly gets form His consulting

 

[CKelley1]

thanks for the post tcdiesel.