2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Hot Nuts!

[NIsaacs]

If all the parts replaced in the front axle did not seem to help the issue, maybe they were not bad, if that is the case how can you blame Dodge?



I have always like the Chevy big block and the 14 bolt rear axle, however the rest of the running gear of the Chevy is no different from Ford, Dodge and IHC for the most part.



I know you have had the truck on specialized alignment equipment, however sometimes factory specs just wont work for whatever reason. I still suggest that you check the front axle toe in and set it for dead ahead. Never toed out but if anything slightly in, no more then 1/32 inch and at least try that.



Nick

 

[Road Dog]

I find it interesting that some people -- like SRath -- have endless (dangerous) trouble and others -- like me -- drive around without a care in the world. Clearly the actual problem(s) haven't been addressed. (I'm not driving at 70 since speed limits top out at 100kph (62mph) around here. )

 

[SRath]

I'll try to answer this, but it's kind of like asking "So Nick, are you still beating your wife?"

If all the parts replaced in the front axle did not seem to help the issue, maybe they were not bad, if that is the case how can you blame Dodge?



Think about your question for one minute, Nick. If I had a problem like this and had not replaced the 170k mile components that are worn, can wear, or could contribute to this, your question would then be "Why haven't you replaced all those things?"



As bad as it is now, it no longer has the insane and deadly DODGE Death Wobble that it had before doing all this. And why do you suppose they call it "DODGE Death Wobble". Do a brief search on this one little forum and see if I'm the only guy with a Dodge that has or had that problem, Nick, then come back and tell me "Dodge isn't to be blamed".



many of the parts were worn out, Nick. I already said I understand that parts wear out and that things break. I have no problem with fixing them. But I expect results and I shouldn't have to keep dumping thousands of dollars under this frontend only to have the same problem.

I have always like the Chevy big block and the 14 bolt rear axle, however the rest of the running gear of the Chevy is no different from Ford, Dodge and IHC for the most part.



We agree on this, Nick: The only part of this Dodge that is any good at all is the parts Dodge DOES NOT MAKE: the cummins, the NV4500/NV5600, the dana 80. I do not blame dana for the front axle since Dodge specified to them how they wanted it built for coil link suspension that is too weak for anything over a half tom gas engine freeway cruiser. Or that the inner axle shafts be downsized to wimpy Dana 44 size. Or that cheaper-for-dodge, but weaker and more expensive for us, balljoints and unitized hubs be used.



Just like Chevy, Dodge used to have a real dana 60 that many companies now charge thousands of Dodge owners thousands of dollars for to try to make their Dodge-specified junk front axles as much like the real thing as possible. Go shopping for a dana 60 sometime. You'll find the dodge balljoint CAD axle is the LEAST desirable axle ever to falsley bear that name. It's crap. It costs everyone money that has it. It even wastes fuel.



I'm not going to argue this further, Nick, there are thousands of posts right here backing up everything I have said about the problems with this crappy design and the crappy materials. And they still haven't learned, as this artcle attests: Chrysler recalling nearly 243,000 Ram pickups over tie rod concern



Given there was never a recall for the 2nd gen Dodge Death Wobble trucks, though they are being investigated by the NTSB finally, and given there was never a recall for corroded brake lines, or the KDP or any number of well-documented defects, just how bad must this defect on the newer trucks be for them to actually recalll it?



But I will say that Chevy & Ford are indeed no different nowadays and I wouldn't own their newer junk either. My Chevys are the good ones built between 1973 and 1991 with leafsprings and real Dana 60 kingpin live-bearing solid axles exactly like Dodge used to put under their trucks before they went stupid and cheap on us. In fact, the chevy & Dodge d60's were interchangeable and are still in high demand.

I know you have had the truck on specialized alignment equipment, however sometimes factory specs just wont work for whatever reason. I still suggest that you check the front axle toe in and set it for dead ahead. Never toed out but if anything slightly in, no more then 1/32 inch and at least try that.



As for the alignment specs, I'll look into it. I don't see where you have backed up your stated specs with anything other than "do it this way" though. And what if mine already is? There has been much written and many suggestions made by many 'experts'. It all costs money to try and you have to drive it to try it. Here's some of the sources I used when I researched the optimum settings: Ram steering specs That partial article is from a place called "Genos" and is not the complete one. But it is just one example. Do a google search and check other dodge forums and you'll see what I mean. Changing alignment is not like changing your headlight aim and is not something you can do accurately on your own.



I had the more complete and better article on my old computer, and I have posted a link to it here on TDR before, too. But rest assured I did my homework on what specs should be used.



Nick

 

[SRath]

It is interesting Road dog. I told about my brother's truck that does not have steering & suspension issues. But he has other issues for sure like the lift & fuel pumps, which is why I wouldn't own a 24v. I should count my blessings that my dash is still perfect, I guess. His is wasted.

 

[AH64ID]

It's not a Dodge death wobble, it can, and does/did, happen on any SFA vehicle.

 

[RustyJC]

It's not a Dodge death wobble, it can, and does/did, happen on any SFA vehicle.

Yep - try Googling "caster wobble".



Rusty

 

[Mhannink]

i got a thought, why not just swap out the whole front axel? or both axels, that would eliminate the axle completely, if the problem still exists then its either in the frame or the tires.



a shake like your describing would suggest something out of balance, but you have already addressed all of the possibilities i think.



some more thoughts i have, steering damper? is it new/good, engine mounts, are they good? cab mounts? i cant remember, have you looked at the control arm bushings? rear spring bushings? are the shackles and centering pins all ok on the rear? your problem seems to suggest something that is fundementaly wrong, like maybe the centering pins on the rear springs are worn out, or the axle can slide around some. this could cause alignment issues that are inttermittent, as it might be out of position one time and not another, i know you have had the frame and axles checked out by proffessional shops but i have never ever trusted anyone to inspect my truck properly, especially when there is a problem such as this with a difficult solution. reason being they dont want to think about it, or really try to solve it, they will do what you ask and when a normal inspection checks out they can cover their ***, look at you and say everything is normal and we dont know what the problem is.



what i would do is strip the axle down and look down the tubes from one end to the other, you will see if it is bent or not very easily, its how we found my cousins bent housing, if thats ok start looking at all the mount, rubber mounts can look ok and not be so test them, shake them, load them, stress them, see if there is any abnormal play, make sure all the bolts are tight and none are worn out. then i would be looking at centering pins and suspension bolts, same thing, bent, worn, or loose, also i see you live is iowa rust is a major factor up there and can hide a lot of problems, so clean the hell out of all the metal parts and then inspect for rust damage. something is moving in and out of position thats why the problem is so intermittent. i had a broken track bar bracket for a while on my truck and it would drive perfectly fine 99% of the time, but if i hit a bump just right, or the road was just the right roughness then it would death wobble. my last thought is how are your shocks, its a real stretch but at this point i wouldnt throw anything out as a possiblity.

 

[SRath]

Funny how I have owned so many old chevys and only had one truck ever do it and that was from a bent rim.



Funnier still how you don't read page after page and post after post of the same problem on the 1st gen forum here... .



But to make you happy, lets just say that the 2nd generation DODGE has perfected the art of Death Wobble like no other vehicle in history and taken it to all new levels.



I have my brother's Grand Cherokee dodge (says jeep on it but it isn't) parked/abandoned next to my shop. It is a light duty vehicle with light duty suspension and steering and a solid front axle.



But since it was designed by the same brain dead mopar engineers with the same exact coil-link suspension they thought would suffice under a heavy diesel truck, it is sitting here because it has the same exact problem: white-knuckle Death Wobble.



DODGE Death Wobble.



But I'll bet it can be easily fixed with some new parts to replace those that have simply worn out. Why can't mine?



Dodge Death Wobble is inherent in the design of these mopar vehicles. Period. These diesel trucks just bring it out faster and worse since they stress the bad and weak design much more.

 

[SRath]

Mhannick, I've thought along those same lines: just get a whole different axle. the frame and axle shops tell me mine is not bent, yet the problem persists. I could almost live with the moderate shake it has right now, but I know from harrowing and expensive experience that it will get much worse as it trashes these new front tires, and even H-rated Michelins aren't immune from that.



But what if the problem is still in the control arms or track bar despite the money spent for upgraded heavy-duty replacements?



I have an extra Chevy passenger-drop real Dana 60 in the garage. I know where there is an NP205 & adapter that would bolt right up to my NV4500, also passenger drop. The real cure would be to torch the coil-link suspension i detest and put leafsprings and that real D60 and Np205 under the frontend. If I change axles, change it out for something superior; not the same junk.



This is a hugely popular conversion to cure chevy's lousy torsion bar front suspension, but they use Ford D60's to keep the driver side drop. The same could theoretically be done on the dodge, but unlike the chevys, there are no kits or proven methods to do this.



The other problem with going passenger side drop would involve the cummins exhaust, but the 1st gens dealt with that just fine.



When I say "real chevy Dana 60 and leaf springs", I'm also saying 1st gen dodge since they were the same. Dodge and Chevy both abandoned the tried, true, and best front suspension, steering, and axle for a heavy duty 4x4 truck. What a shame. I was always a chevy man and they lost me forever as far as new trucks go. I went where the cummins was and was foolish enough to think these dodges still had real dana 60's.



I'm completely indifferent about the trucks. Could care less about the body styles and the interiors and all that. they're all pretty much the same to me with the dodge being unremarkable in every respect.



But I want a solid and reliable and truly heavy duty driveline and chassis. Like chevy and dodge used to build.



A year or two ago, I saw a '93 Cummins dodge extended cab 4x4 that had been converted to a P7100 and had an NV5600 in place of the getrag. That would be the vehicle for me. Or, better yet, the '88 4-door crew cab K30 (V30) single rear wheel 1-ton I have sitting here right now. It has a venerable, but tired, 454 in it with a TH400 and NP205 and Corp 14-bolt and a real kingpin dana 60. That's some very tough stuff! It has softride aftermarket leafsprings and air suspension and Rancho RS9000's and all that good stuff. It rides and drives like a dream and never trashed tires. All it 'needs" is the 12v P7100 Cummins and an NV5600 or even just an NV4500 to pretty much be the "ultimate truck" by my standards. It even has cool stuff like a custom leather and solid oak interior. I love driving it. The stock headlights even actually light up the road. It is superior to this dodge in countless ways --except for the Cummins. But with diesel costing so much, the 454 is not a bad 2nd choice.



It's waiting patiently for that Cummins conversion. I should have done exactly that instead of investing so heavily in rehabilitating this dodge.

 

[bheiting]

My R/F caliper was nearly frozen. It was slow to apply (pulled left) and slow to release (pulled right). Granted, in this case it was smokin' hot (I needed a few extra # of boost to git down the road). There was slight rotor warpage which cause the steering wheel to shimmy on the highway. I replaced the caliper and scuffed up the pads and rotor. After a few good brake applications, the R/F pads reseated and the truck is now stopping straight for the first time in some years.



Did you dismantle the calipers to inspect the cylinders? If it isn't the master cylinder keeping slight pressure on the brakes (as Nick suggested), I'll suggest the cylinder is slightly worn or rusted, causing the pads to drag once the rotors have heated up and expanded. Another possibility is that something isn't mated correctly such that the piston is fully retracted and has nowhere to go when the rotor expands.

I'll second this suggestion. A binding caliper will heat up the rotor 'til it starts warping, and eventually heating the tires 'til they fail. Any vehicle that's ten years old can have this problem, especially up here in the great white north where I live - extreme temps, salt, sand, etc.

 

[AH64ID]

I still think the bearings need to be addressed, isn't it all that's left?

I may have missed it, but is the vibration in the wheel or floorboards?

 

[SRath]

I think you guys are right, its the bearings in those unit hubs. I initially thought the calipers/brakes, too, but they check out very good and last night's test drive seems to show they have nothing to do with my problem.



But why are the bearings worse at times than at others? They generated very little heat last night after making the lugnuts too hot to handle just the day before? The shake was much milder last night, too.



I need to put those Ford components on even if I don't have the money to do the inner axle shafts for awhile. Eliminate the unitized hubs asap in favor of the live-tapered bearing Ford setup. I'll need to get some Ford outer stubs and loaded dual-piston calipers right away. I can add the 35-spline 1-piece inner shafts later if the problem is fixed.



Has anyone ever dissected a unitized hub to see what the setup inside looks like and to see why they fail? to me, with the bearings spaced so closely together and no way to lube or adjust them, the real question is "how in the world do they survive at all?"



The side loads and stresses from a pivoting wheel & tire with the weight of that diesel and the angular velocities and stresses the front wheel bearings endure are huge. I wish i had a dollar for every car I have seen on the side of the road with the wheel jammed up in the wheelwell from unitized hub failure. How in the world did anyone ever expect such a design to survive under a heavy diesel truck. . ?



i have a subaru justy that weighs slightly more than a 12-pack of coors and it has a similar wheel bearing design and it regularly eats those sealed, non-tapered and non-adjustable wheels bearings.

 

[SRath]

I still think the bearings need to be addressed, isn't it all that's left?



I may have missed it, but is the vibration in the wheel or floorboards?

I can't isolate it. It is definitely felt in the steering wheel at all times. It is visible (and felt) in the shaking of the trans & t-case shifters. If you're driving it feels like it is the left front wheel. If you ride in the passenger seat it feels like it is the passenger front wheel. If you're in back, it can feel like a rear wheel. It's all over; the whole truck.



The closest I can describe it if you are holding onto the steering wheel is to imagine you're fishing and some pesky little bluegills keep stealing your worm. You feel the quick little jerks non-stop. If allowed to trash the tires (fronts only) long enough, the "fish" and their bites get much bigger until you swear you can feel each and every individual tire lug as it hits the pavement, like a set of caterpiller tracks instead of round tires. And that's how the front tires wear, too. Then there are rare times like last night where the jerking and shaking are quite mild for awhile. Still there, though.

 

[NIsaacs]

This will probably tick you off too since it was a sorry "Dodge fix", but some trucks about your year used a spacer between one of the front wheels and the hub, I forget which side. Does yours have this or need it?



Nick

 

[AH64ID]

Have you looked at the transmission/xcase mounts?

Also did this come on suddenly or was it a gradual increase?

 

[CCiatteo]

This will probably tick you off too since it was a sorry "Dodge fix", but some trucks about your year used a spacer between one of the front wheels and the hub, I forget which side. Does yours have this or need it?

Nick

My 97 has a factory spacer (that I think is 3. 5mm) on the passenger side front. I have put 100,000 on my truck since I bought, 2 sets of Firestone Transforce 265/75/16's (stock chrome steel wheels) and have never had the front end aligned. She goes straight and true. I grease the front end regularly, rotate tires, check the brakes, keep the rears adjusted etc. I want to do the T-steering upgrade, but this thread has me thinking don't fix what ain't broken. I did replace hubs/rotors and full front end brakes/lines/calipers and shocks, but no steering components.

I feel for Srath, that has to be frustrating.

 

[Bob4x4]

This will probably tick you off too since it was a sorry "Dodge fix", but some trucks about your year used a spacer between one of the front wheels and the hub, I forget which side. Does yours have this or need it?



Nick

That was for a very lengthy tsb on repairing pulls. Usually rt side and many people through them away not knowing why it was there

 

[fest3er]

... I have put 100,000 on my truck since I bought, ...

[hijack] You might want to plan on replacing the front suspension bushings if you don't want to start eating tires. Those bushings really don't last much more than 100k miles. [/hijack]

 

[JMcCoy]

SRATH, I agree with most you issues with the 2nd gen Dodge. What they did to the Dana 60 is a shame. The unit bearings, Dana 44 axles, and the CAD are my biggest issues. I hated it so much, I did the Ford hub conversion. I did a write up, with pictures, on it almost a year ago. I couldn't be happier. Due to finances, I used the stock Dodge axles, and Ford 30 spline stub axles just to get me on the road. I didn't even have to take the u-joints off the inner axles. In the near future, I plan to install the 35 spline inner and outer axles, Detroit locker, Gears, and eliminate the CAD. Fortunately, my CAD is on a the cable system (much better than the POS vacuum system) for now. My truck was like navigating a paddle boat down the Mississippi. It is now rock solid.



Now back to your problem. As far as the shaking, forget your brakes. They are not going to cause shaking when not depressed. My money is on the bushings just above the coil spring. From past posts, I know you use your truck for plowing. I would bet you crushed at least one of those bushings. I would also check all the body bushings. You replaced your control arms. If they are poly, they tend to transfer vibration more than rubber. Your shocks and shock bushings also need to be checked. I have bought brand new shocks that were bad in the past. If you have a bad shock, nothing you do will help your situation. I know you like your Ranchos, but I would look for a different shock. Ranchos are a twin tube of poor quality. You want a good "mono-tube" shock like Bilsteins or Edlebrocks for this heavy duty application. Your Ranchos are twin tube design. The cummins is a lot heavier than your chevy's 454. If your bent on Ranchos, I believe they just started making a mono-tube shock. I would wait and see how they turn out.



Now to your brakes. Once you go to the Ford setup, you will wonder why you didn't do it years ago. Do you have the Chevy 1 ton wheel cylinders in the rear. If not, do it. They made a huge difference. I have a disk brake Dana 80 that i'm putting in soon that should be even better.



Since your on a budget like most of us, I would do the following:

spring bushings

Ford spindles and hubs with the Dodge axles (you can do the 35 spline axles later. )

I used Discount auto loaded brake calipers and they work fine.

Chevy wheel cylinders



Someone mentioned a bent axle. If you have a bent axle, the Lockouts will tell you. When in free spin, it will be smooth. When locked...

Did the tire shop check for tire roundness. I have heard where people the the 19. 5's and have to take them somewhere with a lathe to turn them down. I hope this helps. Good luck.

 

[SRath]

Lots of possibilities in these posts... A couple I have not heard of or considered before like the spacer and the coil spring cushion/bushing.



I'm looking forward to the ford hub conversion and I'm not going to wait any longer for the funds for the inner CAD-delete 35-spline axle shafts. I do need to buy outer stubs and my Warn lockouts are 35-spline, so I'll go for the good ones right off.



I have always questioned the strength of this CAD axle housing. The addition of that press-fit CAD sleeve in the long tube is major weak point, especially with a heavy cummins and occassional snowplow. So I have had the axle checked for true more than once. Surprisingly, I haven't ever seen an aftermarket axle truss, so fabricating one would be good idea once satisfied the assembly is worth further rehabilitation.



I'm trying to wrap my mind around the one-wheel spacer logic and how the upper coil spring cushion would come into play here... The cushions are still there, but I have never had them out for any reason and wouldn't have the foggiest idea how "crushed" they might be.



Wheel spacers are something I'm looking at anyway. The Ricksons set my wheels deeper into the wheel wells. That's actually a good thing since I never liked how the fronts would protrude and throw stuff down the side of the truck. The fronts are also wider than the rear, or at least it sure looks that way. The ford hub conversion will add (I believe) 1/2 inch per side more width. With the Ricksons, the tires will still remain in the confines of the wheelwell. The rear wheels are going to get 1/2" spacers to widen the track an equal amount.



But spacers from the factory? Single ones even? My (used) truck came with the worst aftermarket wheels I ever saw on it, and I immediately replaced them. I've never owned factory wheels. If it ever had spacer(s), it didn't when I got it.