Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Hot Rod VP-44 failures???

[CumminsAholic]

Just ran across this. . http://www.bluechipdiesel.com/VP44INFO.html a special computer...

Corey

 

[ThrottleJockey]

I have two questions,



The VP-44 is cooled by the fuel it pumps, right? The HRVP-44 SHOULD run a bit cooler. It flows more fuel. If there was a way to cool the fuel... .



And is there any way to evacuate the excess heat OUT from under the hood? It seems to collect there. Any ideas beyond the turbo wrap concept?



Brian

 

[MKoth]

So there is a chance the re-man VP44s that Industrial Injection sells use a used PSG? How about the high performance VPs?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

We sell through a lot of dealers in the USA and Canada. As far as the failures that you may have seen, there are a few that occur often. The first is as you know the supply pump problem. There is a Mopar service letter that I have read and it says, that if the vehicle is in warranty and has experienced a transfer pump failure they should replace it and the injection pump also. That has been a while ago so policy may have changed. You are right about the transfer pump, flow through the injection pump cools it. But the real failures are caused by low transfer pressure. The steel diaphram inside the injection pump separates the high side pressure and the low side pressure. The low side pressure is directly affected by low transfer pressure. The steel diaphram is engineered so that the low side pressure off sets the high side pressure. The seals are made to work well with . 5mm movement or crush. When the low side pressure drops the movement or crush increases up to 2. 0mm that beats the seals flat and causes the high side pressure to leak by causing running problems and advance issues. The steel diaphram has been updated and is much stronger than the old ones that used to break all the time, which caused the same leaking problem. High injection pump temps. cause fuel presure to leak more. Thats why it dies or runs bad when it's hot. The PSG is the term for the brain box, it has a finite life. It's rated by the number of starts. The old PSG's were rated for alot less starts than the new updated ones. When we reman these pumps we will start by plugging into the PSG to retrieve any falt codes and to check the general health and part number so that we will know if it's still like new or if it's bad. We only use them if there like new. We probably replace more PSG's than anyone I know building these pumps. There has been several updates to the pump housing and advance piston. We always replace pump housings because you can't get the pump to calibrate on the test stand 90% of the time when the housing is reused. We also update the pump housings to bring the pump up to the best that can be made. Previous pump housings and adv. pistons have had some problems. Bad Overflow valves have been problems.



Hope this helps. www.industrialinjection.com

The above, is one of the MOST informative and helpful bits *I* have seen presented on failure causes in the VP-44, as well as a general heads up on supply fuel pressure TO the VP-44 and need for electronics update along with mechanical replacements during rebuilds...



Thanks!

 

[BradyWilliams]

VP44 pumps come in for service for alot of reasons. Some of these reasons may include problems that have nothing to do with electronics. Of these none electronic failures some may be short hour or short mileage failures that had new electronics previously installed. It would be stupid for us or any rebuilder to replace such items. But you can rest assured that we don't see that senario very offen.

 

[MKoth]

VP44 pumps come in for service for alot of reasons. Some of these reasons may include problems that have nothing to do with electronics. Of these none electronic failures some may be short hour or short mileage failures that had new electronics previously installed. It would be stupid for us or any rebuilder to replace such items. But you can rest assured that we don't see that senario very offen.

Most pump rebuilders use the fact that a new pump housing and brain box are used as a selling point. I guess I am just very leary about paying good money for a pump that one of the known problem areas is just checked for functionality, and not automatically replaced.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Honesty is always the best policy. But don't worry we always replace those PSG's, but the ones we save that are like new can help people that need a friend to help them in a bad situation. "



Does this mean you have on hand PSG's that you are certain are good, but have been replaced simply as a matter of good policy?



If so, are any of those available for resale to potential users willing to take a risk - and maybe use one for a backup, or perhaps at least TRY to resurect a failed VP-44 that has a suspected electronics failure?



If so, *I* sure would be interested in one - especially since my pet theory is that the MAJORITY of VP-44 failures are electronics related...



If you prefer, email me with comments or details...



Thanks.





OH, on a related issue, I recently purchased what was represented sa an extremely low hours used HO VP-44 as a backup for my truck - it looks great externally, seems to have a very late serial #, and is a NEW Bosch unit, not a rebuilt. My question is, the drive shaft seems easier to manually rotate than I would expect, tho' there is noticeable resistance to rotation at various points that I assume corresponds to plungers hitting the high point on the cam lobes - does that sound about right?



Thanks again.

 

[BradyWilliams]

Please be assured we do replace PSG's Thanks for your interest.

 

[MKoth]

Please be assured we do replace PSG's Thanks for your interest.

OK, that was what I wanted to hear, as I am in the market for a new VP44.



I have already called and talked to different people that use and sell your pumps, and have heard nothing but good things. As soon as I am financially ready I will be purchasing your product.

 

[MKoth]

"Honesty is always the best policy. But don't worry we always replace those PSG's, but the ones we save that are like new can help people that need a friend to help them in a bad situation. "



Does this mean you have on hand PSG's that you are certain are good, but have been replaced simply as a matter of good policy?



If so, are any of those available for resale to potential users willing to take a risk - and maybe use one for a backup, or perhaps at least TRY to resurect a failed VP-44 that has a suspected electronics failure?



If so, *I* sure would be interested in one - especially since my pet theory is that the MAJORITY of VP-44 failures are electronics related...



If you prefer, email me with comments or details...



Thanks.





OH, on a related issue, I recently purchased what was represented sa an extremely low hours used HO VP-44 as a backup for my truck - it looks great externally, seems to have a very late serial #, and is a NEW Bosch unit, not a rebuilt. My question is, the drive shaft seems easier to manually rotate than I would expect, tho' there is noticeable resistance to rotation at various points that I assume corresponds to plungers hitting the high point on the cam lobes - does that sound about right?



Thanks again.

Gary,



The PSG has to be calibrated to each individual pump and pump timing key on a very exspensive test stand. As far as I have been lead to believe you cannot swap the brains on the pump with out recalibrating it.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Gary,



The PSG has to be calibrated to each individual pump and pump timing key on a very exspensive test stand. As far as I have been lead to believe you cannot swap the brains on the pump with out recalibrating it.

Thanks for the insight - sounds reasonable, too bad, since the swapout of electronics probably isn't all that difficult, as compared with other parts replacements...



I still remain curious as to the normal VP-44 shaft rotational resistance - I would have suspected a more pronounced resistance as internal plungers rise on their "compression" points, assuming at least some degree of return spring action that forces the piston back down to the bottom of the bore before starting the next fuel delivery stroke. But fact is, I haven't SEEN any such mechanism at that point in the VP-44, and am unsure WHAT drives the pistons back down or holds them in contact with the cam.



And unfortunately, those who DO know, never reply to my question...

 

[BradyWilliams]

That is right you have to calibrate the pump after installing the PSG there are no acceptions. We sell any thing you may want but we always inform you on all the problems you will see. There is no sense to have a rainy day PSG. You will need a pump. But you might as well get a good one. Thanks www.industrialinjection.com

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

That is right you have to calibrate the pump after installing the PSG there are no acceptions. We sell any thing you may want but we always inform you on all the problems you will see. There is no sense to have a rainy day PSG. You will need a pump. But you might as well get a good one. Thanks www.industrialinjection.com

Thanks Brett - but sure wish someone would respond to the LAST part of my question about shaft rotational resistance/characteristics...



Why is this important?



Well, s'pose you come across what APPEARS to be a good buy in a used pump, but if you try rotating the shaft, there's NO resistance at all - is that normal?



OR, the force needed to rotate the shaft is VERY stiff - normal?



OR, turning the shaft displays an extremely tight resistance at only ONE point in rotation - normal?



I fully realize there's precious LITTLE about the condition of a VP-44 that can be determined visually - and probably not a lot even with "shaft twisting" - but every tidbit of info certainly helps - and sometimes GETTING that info is like pulling teeth!



Shucks, I'm beginning to think no one, including the rebuilders, has actually TRIED to turn that shaft by hand...

 

[GaryMoore]

A better mousetrap?

Isnt there a dependable replacement of somekind out there? At nearly $2000 a pop, why hasn't an independent manufacturer come along and just furnished a bolt in superior product?... gary

 

[MKoth]

Isnt there a dependable replacement of somekind out there? At nearly $2000 a pop, why hasn't an independent manufacturer come along and just furnished a bolt in superior product?... gary

If you maintain good fuel pressure, most VP44 failures are do to an electrical gremlin. There are people that advertise a special sever duty PSG, but there are little to no ways to back it up.



Sure, a truck may go 100,000 miles with this new special brain on it, but there are some stock VP trucks that go 200,000 miles without issues. As with most things electrical, it is all a gamble anymore.

 

[BradyWilliams]

Re: Vp44

We already offer a great product! I don't know why the price has been so high for you but believe me our prices are no where close to 2,000 dollars and my dealers should never have charged that high of a price! So I would say you have not been dealing with my dealers or ourselves. We will be happy to supply you with the very best product that can be made. If you want to make sure that pump failures don't happen again maybe install a FASS fuel system at the same time. He warranty's his FASS fuel systems for 4 years. Thanks www.industrialinjection.com

 

[BradyWilliams]

Re: Vp44

Please be advised there is not a severe duty brain box (PSG). There is however an updated PSG that is rated for longer use (more starts). That is exactly what we use in our pumps no acception. Thanks

 

[MKoth]

Please be advised there is not a severe duty brain box (PSG). There is however an updated PSG that is rated for longer use (more starts). That is exactly what we use in our pumps no acception. Thanks

Is this the same PSG that Bosch supposedly built for FedEx because of all the issues they were having?

 

[MKoth]

Oh, one more quick question.



What is the warrenty for the pumps sold by Industrial Injection? does piercing the pump wire void that warrenty?



Thank you.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Please be advised there is not a severe duty brain box (PSG). There is however an updated PSG that is rated for longer use (more starts). That is exactly what we use in our pumps no acception. Thanks

HMMMmmm - that's rather interesting - and I don't quite understand the "rated for more starts" bit?



Does that mean unusual stresses are applied the the PSG during starts in normal operation that result in known component damage - or that they are somehow designed to fail at some finite number of starst? Sort of a "built in failure period"?