The correction factors can be calculated. the problem is that nobody does it right... . so, better not to do it at all.
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HP numbers not the big deal here
- Thread starter Briar Hopper
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hvacs
run was done on n20, and lpg.
this is why i bought a new truck and had bd put there transmission in it. i was tired of all the ******* and moaning around here. so now i will go to either the sled track or the drag strip. BRING IT ON.
kieth i wish i could make it to test and tune on sat but i will be pulling in ripon ca. come on over and hook mark's truck up to the sled.
jim
run was done on n20, and lpg.
this is why i bought a new truck and had bd put there transmission in it. i was tired of all the ******* and moaning around here. so now i will go to either the sled track or the drag strip. BRING IT ON.
kieth i wish i could make it to test and tune on sat but i will be pulling in ripon ca. come on over and hook mark's truck up to the sled.
jim
Keith,
I have to disagree with the following quote:
on the dyno the driver doesn't matter, that's what's nice about it. Pick a gear, pick an RPM and put it to the floor. Not too much to it.
The dyno driver does make a difference. We both know that the brakes can be applied while building up to speed to load the engine and powertrain. Then when the throttle is applied, the brakes are released the truck really spikes the numbers! This is one way some folks get alot higher number running identical mods. There are also other small tricks of the trade that can be employeed to help with the numbers.
I will have to say the only way to really get accurate dyno #'s is using not only the same dyno on the same day but with the same unbiased dyno operator.
Doug
I have to disagree with the following quote:
on the dyno the driver doesn't matter, that's what's nice about it. Pick a gear, pick an RPM and put it to the floor. Not too much to it.
The dyno driver does make a difference. We both know that the brakes can be applied while building up to speed to load the engine and powertrain. Then when the throttle is applied, the brakes are released the truck really spikes the numbers! This is one way some folks get alot higher number running identical mods. There are also other small tricks of the trade that can be employeed to help with the numbers.
I will have to say the only way to really get accurate dyno #'s is using not only the same dyno on the same day but with the same unbiased dyno operator.
Doug
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Joseph Donnelly
TDR MEMBER
(Anybody can open the hood on a Cummins Ram and pour money in, and get the numbers. )
Briar Hopper, I disagree. Many have tried, how many have made over 600 hp on #2 only? Drugs aren't allowed in NHRA. NASCAR, the Olympics, or horse racing. I will agree that drugs give an easier route to big numbers. For that matter, very few have made 500+ on diesel only. Making the numbers on diesel fuel only, and with turbo air only, is the real challenge.
(Then when the throttle is applied, the brakes are released the truck really spikes the numbers! This is one way some folks get alot higher number running identical mods. )
Jetpilot, I have tried loading many times on the Dynojet. I can significantly increase horsepower during spool up with loading, but the peak power is not improved. I would probably not get much increase in spool up if Sickly's turbo weren't so big.
Briar Hopper, I disagree. Many have tried, how many have made over 600 hp on #2 only? Drugs aren't allowed in NHRA. NASCAR, the Olympics, or horse racing. I will agree that drugs give an easier route to big numbers. For that matter, very few have made 500+ on diesel only. Making the numbers on diesel fuel only, and with turbo air only, is the real challenge.
(Then when the throttle is applied, the brakes are released the truck really spikes the numbers! This is one way some folks get alot higher number running identical mods. )
Jetpilot, I have tried loading many times on the Dynojet. I can significantly increase horsepower during spool up with loading, but the peak power is not improved. I would probably not get much increase in spool up if Sickly's turbo weren't so big.
The facts here are that someone posted bigger HP numbers than any of us have seen before on just #2 and a bunch of us want to know what they did or see it proven on a different dyno. We are not jelous of their transmission, I don't care what they use I just want to know how they get 50-75 HP more than anyone else using only #2.
good points
I just read everyone's posts after my last and agree with what everyone said!
I like what Mark said about dynoing without the correction factor, because if you were dynoing for it's true purpose (measuring gains or losses with products) then it wouldn't matter. My point is that even if you had a product you were testing for printed material you could refer to the gains and not the total hp number. I can tell everyone that the last injectors gave me 43 more hp and a 200 degree EGT loss without "bragging" about my numbers. If I am asked, I will tell what I dynoed, but it's more important to me that I do well as a racer on the track.
So I guess it is what is more important to you; bringing me right back to an earlier post I put up discussing why I don't argue on these boards, what's important to me isn't always important to others... .
I just read everyone's posts after my last and agree with what everyone said!
I like what Mark said about dynoing without the correction factor, because if you were dynoing for it's true purpose (measuring gains or losses with products) then it wouldn't matter. My point is that even if you had a product you were testing for printed material you could refer to the gains and not the total hp number. I can tell everyone that the last injectors gave me 43 more hp and a 200 degree EGT loss without "bragging" about my numbers. If I am asked, I will tell what I dynoed, but it's more important to me that I do well as a racer on the track.
So I guess it is what is more important to you; bringing me right back to an earlier post I put up discussing why I don't argue on these boards, what's important to me isn't always important to others... .
If the 500-600 boys are an "elite group", what are the 800-900 boys?
Scrap those adjusted numbers, run what ya brung, everybody drives their own truck on the dyno.
Scrap those adjusted numbers, run what ya brung, everybody drives their own truck on the dyno.
Briar,
I do have a great deal of respect for you and it was because of your honesty and your demand for the truth. Lets look at this from a different point of view. Say someone came out here and said the DR. had made 597 hp on # 2 diesel on a vp 44 pump.
I wonder would your attitude be the same? Would you have still started a whole new thread defending the outlandish claim?
Telling guys that the #'s dont matter as long as you have a fast truck, when it seems of late the numbers are all that matter. Thats what seperates a fast truck from a very fast truck.
It seems the trend now is to put up unsupported numbers , outlandish claims, and guys asking questions are being considered narrowminded. I am not referring to the comment by Stakeman, this just seems to be the latest trend .
30 % of our business comes from guys that fell victim to the numbers game and marketing. It is a persons right to believe whatever they want to believe, and buy whatever they want.
Numbers are used to sell these products so ultimately they do matter.
I am not allowed to use the company name , but there is a company out there advertising that they can hold 3 times as much as a single disc . Now the average single disc will hold about 230 hp , to claim that their product can hold 3 times as much they would have had to test at 690hp. I have worked on more than a few transmissions and i have never seen a stock transmission be able to hold 690hp. Kinda makes you wonder how they did the test.
A modified trans & tc will hold about 400hp for a while, now they would have had to do the testing at 1200hp, how many dodge rams you know with 1200 hp.
I know of a nutcase in Vegas that has his hold 700hp with a single disc clutch, actually held 700.
Now for your friends to have done their test on their 3 disc for their claims to hold true, it would have had to been tested at 2100hp, did you by chance happen to get the opportunity to ride in either the 1200 hp truck or the 2100hp truck?
I beg to differ, when the numbers are used to promote and sell products they do matter.
Briar, i am not trying to flame you i am just want you to see where i am comming from. I am going out of town for a few days think about this .
Our friend the DR got to where he was making claims that for a long time went unchallenged. I think there were a few along the way that could have been saved had someone spoken up.
I do have a great deal of respect for you and it was because of your honesty and your demand for the truth. Lets look at this from a different point of view. Say someone came out here and said the DR. had made 597 hp on # 2 diesel on a vp 44 pump.
I wonder would your attitude be the same? Would you have still started a whole new thread defending the outlandish claim?
Telling guys that the #'s dont matter as long as you have a fast truck, when it seems of late the numbers are all that matter. Thats what seperates a fast truck from a very fast truck.
It seems the trend now is to put up unsupported numbers , outlandish claims, and guys asking questions are being considered narrowminded. I am not referring to the comment by Stakeman, this just seems to be the latest trend .
30 % of our business comes from guys that fell victim to the numbers game and marketing. It is a persons right to believe whatever they want to believe, and buy whatever they want.
Numbers are used to sell these products so ultimately they do matter.
I am not allowed to use the company name , but there is a company out there advertising that they can hold 3 times as much as a single disc . Now the average single disc will hold about 230 hp , to claim that their product can hold 3 times as much they would have had to test at 690hp. I have worked on more than a few transmissions and i have never seen a stock transmission be able to hold 690hp. Kinda makes you wonder how they did the test.
A modified trans & tc will hold about 400hp for a while, now they would have had to do the testing at 1200hp, how many dodge rams you know with 1200 hp.
I know of a nutcase in Vegas that has his hold 700hp with a single disc clutch, actually held 700.
Now for your friends to have done their test on their 3 disc for their claims to hold true, it would have had to been tested at 2100hp, did you by chance happen to get the opportunity to ride in either the 1200 hp truck or the 2100hp truck?
I beg to differ, when the numbers are used to promote and sell products they do matter.
Briar, i am not trying to flame you i am just want you to see where i am comming from. I am going out of town for a few days think about this .
Our friend the DR got to where he was making claims that for a long time went unchallenged. I think there were a few along the way that could have been saved had someone spoken up.
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Just to remind everyone... this is the post in question.
He did post numbers. He has not posted any relevant info to the thread since.
Kevin Doesn't work for the shop that has the converter in question does he?
They are telling Kevin these numbers and are not chiming in to defend him.
I still want to know how to get 600hp/1350lbft out of #2. I don't care to know exactly what part went on but a generalization. .
VP44 work, XXX fueling box, XXXbased turbo, twins, modified fuel supply, XXXX injectors, x,y,z engine mods, etc. So that we can evaluate the claim.
Like I said before, I hope they did do it. I hope they can and do repeat the performance.
With my experience from some of their transmission threads in the past, I won't believe it until they give a lot more info.
On a different note...
Here's the one on the dyno correction factors for reference:
Gene (sled puller) posted this for us. .
He did post numbers. He has not posted any relevant info to the thread since.
Kevin Doesn't work for the shop that has the converter in question does he?
They are telling Kevin these numbers and are not chiming in to defend him.
I still want to know how to get 600hp/1350lbft out of #2. I don't care to know exactly what part went on but a generalization. .
VP44 work, XXX fueling box, XXXbased turbo, twins, modified fuel supply, XXXX injectors, x,y,z engine mods, etc. So that we can evaluate the claim.
Like I said before, I hope they did do it. I hope they can and do repeat the performance.
With my experience from some of their transmission threads in the past, I won't believe it until they give a lot more info.
On a different note...
Here's the one on the dyno correction factors for reference:
Gene (sled puller) posted this for us. .
Bob Wagner
TDR MEMBER
and from the Ford site
http://forums.ford-diesel.com/ubbth...=681795&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
http://forums.ford-diesel.com/ubbth...=681795&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
Last edited by a moderator:
It sounds to me that people are begining to believe that triple disc TC's do work, and the makers say they hold torque so well others are now claiming it may be hard to actually measure the actual torque holding capacity of them. Thats not such a bad problem to have.
Also, ATS is not the only one out there with a triple disk. Dave Goerend is also making one now
Also, ATS is not the only one out there with a triple disk. Dave Goerend is also making one now
Bill, we've been friends quite a while now. You KNOW I wouldn't defend outlandish claims, no matter who they came from. You make several valid points as to why numbers do matter. So the truth is, I hadn't stopped to consider that side of it, and other views, before hammering away at my keyboard. I , like a few others (or many ?) am tired of the HP claims here and there.
My viewpoint is the Midwest style, the one that says, "Look at Dave Mitchell, he doesn't post numbers. " He doesn't have to. If you've seen the truck pull the sled, then you know. His business card doesn't even list products. It merely shows a picture of the mighty white beast at full smoke. That is where I'm coming from, Bill. You also don't see Mitchell being foolish enough to shoot off his mouth on these forums, like I and so many others do. In that respect, his marketing tactics are a heckuva lot better than the rest of us. He's too busy getting ahead of the rest of us to bother with the TDR, except perhaps when he needs some laughs.
We all know you want to keep people from buying a bad transmission, Bill, and I support that, and your incredible customer service.
We all know your transmissions are good, even great. Would we still buy them from you if, by some unfortunate quirk of fate, you were making outlandish claims about them? Possibly.
A lot of people are "doing their homework" lately, and see the possibility of other good products out there. The snide remark, Bill, "Now for your friends to have done their test..... " Friends? I don't know. I hope so. I just met them. They were mighty nice to me. I won't defend a product just because I like someone or not.
As for the nutcase in Vegas, my truck has his clutch in it. It was at the time I bought it, what appeared to be one of only two reasonable choices for a high HP clutch. Mitchell had the other one. I tried to save money. Oops. So you see, I do understand full well about having to make transmission decisions based on what other people tell me, or what I can find out on my own.
I believe ATS has a strong torque convertor. A really strong one. A look at one that's unassembled is usually enough for even the average un-mechanically minded to grasp instantly how and why it works, and to be impressed. The rest of the transmission? The torque convertor will probably hold more than the transmission, without an upgrade to oversize or cryogenic shafts.
Numbers? Claims? I don't know. I don't have your experience, Bill, or that of Clint. I'm an experienced and acomplished mechanic, yes, but new to transmissions. But Clint Cannon's knowledge of transmissions is incredible, too, and should not be dismissed out of hand, nor taken lightly.
Let's just see how well it holds up, why don't we? There'll be a few on the track this year, hopefully, as well as yours.
I can't debate transmissions with you Bill, I'm not in your league. So getting into it with you on here is pointless.
My viewpoint is simply that of a strongly interested consumer, with an eye towards getting into the installation business.
My viewpoint is the Midwest style, the one that says, "Look at Dave Mitchell, he doesn't post numbers. " He doesn't have to. If you've seen the truck pull the sled, then you know. His business card doesn't even list products. It merely shows a picture of the mighty white beast at full smoke. That is where I'm coming from, Bill. You also don't see Mitchell being foolish enough to shoot off his mouth on these forums, like I and so many others do. In that respect, his marketing tactics are a heckuva lot better than the rest of us. He's too busy getting ahead of the rest of us to bother with the TDR, except perhaps when he needs some laughs.
We all know you want to keep people from buying a bad transmission, Bill, and I support that, and your incredible customer service.
We all know your transmissions are good, even great. Would we still buy them from you if, by some unfortunate quirk of fate, you were making outlandish claims about them? Possibly.
A lot of people are "doing their homework" lately, and see the possibility of other good products out there. The snide remark, Bill, "Now for your friends to have done their test..... " Friends? I don't know. I hope so. I just met them. They were mighty nice to me. I won't defend a product just because I like someone or not.
As for the nutcase in Vegas, my truck has his clutch in it. It was at the time I bought it, what appeared to be one of only two reasonable choices for a high HP clutch. Mitchell had the other one. I tried to save money. Oops. So you see, I do understand full well about having to make transmission decisions based on what other people tell me, or what I can find out on my own.
I believe ATS has a strong torque convertor. A really strong one. A look at one that's unassembled is usually enough for even the average un-mechanically minded to grasp instantly how and why it works, and to be impressed. The rest of the transmission? The torque convertor will probably hold more than the transmission, without an upgrade to oversize or cryogenic shafts.
Numbers? Claims? I don't know. I don't have your experience, Bill, or that of Clint. I'm an experienced and acomplished mechanic, yes, but new to transmissions. But Clint Cannon's knowledge of transmissions is incredible, too, and should not be dismissed out of hand, nor taken lightly.
Let's just see how well it holds up, why don't we? There'll be a few on the track this year, hopefully, as well as yours.
I can't debate transmissions with you Bill, I'm not in your league. So getting into it with you on here is pointless.
My viewpoint is simply that of a strongly interested consumer, with an eye towards getting into the installation business.
Hmmmm Big FORD Dyno day in area but they can't make it? But if you call they'll spend an 1 ½ hours with you answering all your questions..... If you Stop by they'll spend hours showing you around..... But if you set up a Dyno shootout, they can't take the time to go across town to PROVE what they say?? Something sounds fishy JMHO
I am not associated with any Transmission shop, Haven't even had any transmission work done (YET). So I actually hope ATS can do what they say... . But sounds Fishy and I hate seafood.
Darren - Like to catch fish though
I am not associated with any Transmission shop, Haven't even had any transmission work done (YET). So I actually hope ATS can do what they say... . But sounds Fishy and I hate seafood.
Darren - Like to catch fish though
Re: and from the Ford site
"Mental" injectors huh? Wonder who they're copying now. Ugh.
Briar, I think you're right. More demo's, less dyno's. I'd love to see more guys go to the drag strip or pull. If I could talk the powers to be over here into letting me do it with their hardware, I would (finally got them to let me run the trucks at the drags). BTW, I think when bill was talking about "a nutcase in Vegas", he meant Lawrence. Joe has never been to 700rwhp.
The dyno does have it's place though. It's an easy way to measure that doesn't have to take practice and setup into the equation.
Gene, 800-900? Where are the dyno print outs? How can anyone claim that if they haven't had the truck on the dyno?
Jetpilot, I know what you mean. But if a crowd is standing there (like at a show) it's pretty tough to get away with something like that.
HeloDan, as I've said before... we run the autos in OD locked so it won't downshift or unlock. We run <450hp manuals in 1:1, >450hp manuals in OD.
Smile everybody... it's all for the fun!
"Mental" injectors huh? Wonder who they're copying now. Ugh.
Briar, I think you're right. More demo's, less dyno's. I'd love to see more guys go to the drag strip or pull. If I could talk the powers to be over here into letting me do it with their hardware, I would (finally got them to let me run the trucks at the drags). BTW, I think when bill was talking about "a nutcase in Vegas", he meant Lawrence. Joe has never been to 700rwhp.
The dyno does have it's place though. It's an easy way to measure that doesn't have to take practice and setup into the equation.
Gene, 800-900? Where are the dyno print outs? How can anyone claim that if they haven't had the truck on the dyno?
Jetpilot, I know what you mean. But if a crowd is standing there (like at a show) it's pretty tough to get away with something like that.
HeloDan, as I've said before... we run the autos in OD locked so it won't downshift or unlock. We run <450hp manuals in 1:1, >450hp manuals in OD.
Smile everybody... it's all for the fun!
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Just Info
We here at ATS have been doing work with the drive train parts first and foremost. This kind of power has made all of us in the industry work hard to repair things down stream, due to the massive torque and HP the diesels make. Let me set people straight about things that most people know already; trucks like this require a lot of modification from factory parts. Our transmissions have many mods done to them. The torque converter is our TripleLok™. The engine is running some large test injectors of our design. The fuel injection pump is also not a Factory VP44, and is not a 7100 pump. This injection system is in testing at this point. The engine has some very innovative mods done to it. The turbo is also one of our custom units. The truck also uses a Edge Comp Box. We also have been working with ceramics with the air system. This truck is still being tested, and the numbers on the dyno have been checked and recheck. The truck has been on other dyno’s and we will be re-testing it many more times.
We will not get into pi—ing contests on who makes the higher numbers, but I will say, “Look out for us”. We have been at the racetracks and will be living, full time, at them along with our products. We hope to assist anyone wanting new products as more of them become available. We already have camshafts, CNC ported and flowed heads, and many more things in the works. We are like any other company, in the fact that we also have our test trucks that we work with. This helps us produce better parts and service for all to access. We will be re-testing it all of the time so that we can keep people informed as we get things that are of interest to others. Just because there have been certain trucks that are known out there, does not mean that there is not more things going on that people don’t know about.
Let me say that there are many people working on behind-the-scenes issues that do not post on the TDR. This does not mean that they do not know what they are doing, just because some of you have never herd of them or there work. Sometimes the negative pi—sing matches cause people not to discuss progress openly. They just show up and do their thing. Performance at show time is what counts in the end. For those of you that want to have all of the info; it will come in time.
We here at ATS have been doing work with the drive train parts first and foremost. This kind of power has made all of us in the industry work hard to repair things down stream, due to the massive torque and HP the diesels make. Let me set people straight about things that most people know already; trucks like this require a lot of modification from factory parts. Our transmissions have many mods done to them. The torque converter is our TripleLok™. The engine is running some large test injectors of our design. The fuel injection pump is also not a Factory VP44, and is not a 7100 pump. This injection system is in testing at this point. The engine has some very innovative mods done to it. The turbo is also one of our custom units. The truck also uses a Edge Comp Box. We also have been working with ceramics with the air system. This truck is still being tested, and the numbers on the dyno have been checked and recheck. The truck has been on other dyno’s and we will be re-testing it many more times.
We will not get into pi—ing contests on who makes the higher numbers, but I will say, “Look out for us”. We have been at the racetracks and will be living, full time, at them along with our products. We hope to assist anyone wanting new products as more of them become available. We already have camshafts, CNC ported and flowed heads, and many more things in the works. We are like any other company, in the fact that we also have our test trucks that we work with. This helps us produce better parts and service for all to access. We will be re-testing it all of the time so that we can keep people informed as we get things that are of interest to others. Just because there have been certain trucks that are known out there, does not mean that there is not more things going on that people don’t know about.
Let me say that there are many people working on behind-the-scenes issues that do not post on the TDR. This does not mean that they do not know what they are doing, just because some of you have never herd of them or there work. Sometimes the negative pi—sing matches cause people not to discuss progress openly. They just show up and do their thing. Performance at show time is what counts in the end. For those of you that want to have all of the info; it will come in time.
Re: Re: and from the Ford site
Now which is it Keith? On the dyno or the track?
Dyno numbers can only be questioned when the OWNER of the truck posts them.
Oh how I wish I could make May Madness!
Can DD come to Scheids or Muncie? Please?
Now which is it Keith? On the dyno or the track?
Dyno numbers can only be questioned when the OWNER of the truck posts them.
Oh how I wish I could make May Madness!
Can DD come to Scheids or Muncie? Please?
Thanks Dramer.
I like the way those ceramics cut down under hood heat. being able to lay your hand on both sides of a turbo after a couple of 400+ hp runs is pretty coll isn't it?
Some of us don't have the luxury of attending shows and events. So we come here to learn, discuss and scheme about up and coming products. It's no pi$$ing just probing.
The vast majority of what goes on here is just for fun. A few of you have the oportunity to do it for a living.
I want to hear a little more about that pump and fuel system when you get the chance.
Thanks,
Mark
I like the way those ceramics cut down under hood heat. being able to lay your hand on both sides of a turbo after a couple of 400+ hp runs is pretty coll isn't it?
Some of us don't have the luxury of attending shows and events. So we come here to learn, discuss and scheme about up and coming products. It's no pi$$ing just probing.
The vast majority of what goes on here is just for fun. A few of you have the oportunity to do it for a living.
I want to hear a little more about that pump and fuel system when you get the chance.
Thanks,
Mark
Re: Re: Re: and from the Ford site
You said "If the 500-600 boys are an "elite group", what are the 800-900 boys?". That would mean that you have seen the 800-900hp figure on a dyno to ask about them right?
You said "If the 500-600 boys are an "elite group", what are the 800-900 boys?". That would mean that you have seen the 800-900hp figure on a dyno to ask about them right?
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
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Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
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What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
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