Competition HP vs TQ one..more..time......

[BRayls]

put simply hp is is nothing more than accerated(sp? sorry) trq. and is a figure of the torque at that rpm. for that matter I have found fake dyno sheets by the graphs. the 2 power bands will cross at 5252 rpm everytime. problem on diesels not many go there.

 

[J.Davy]

The way I look at is horsepower is basically how much tq. your engine puts out in a minute. My own analogy is this- pretend you have two guys ,each in a cylinder with their head sticking out the spark plug hole. one guy is a sumo wrestler the other is a light weight olympic sprinter,they each extend their legs out and push on the top of the piston . Lets say the sumo can push twice as hard as the sprinter then he should be doing more work,but now you get the sprinter to push twice as fast and he should be doing the same amount of work. You would have to gear the athletes load in half to compensate but all things being equal they should be accelerating at the same rate. All the sprinter has to do is go a little faster and he should be accelerating the load at a faster rate. The sumo has to push harder and he will equal the sprinter. It all balances out but everybody has limits. In the case of a engine as long as rpm rises faster than torque falls than h. p. will increase. Just like if the olympic athlete could keep pushing down with the same force but keep doing it faster and faster then eventually he is going to be doing more work then the sumo. You just re-gear accordingly and h. p. will be turned back in to a larger number at the final drive. B. M. W. theory in Formula 1 racing is just that. They figure you can only fill a cylinder so much in a given period of time so they just fill it more times in a minute than anyone else does and therefore make more power.

 

[COMP461]

Quote:

Originally Posted by COMP461

, I leave the line at 4000+ rpms, and never look back. .







Well sungun! So do I!

Nice to see you following old Sled Pullers lead.





I've seen that too, but I think it was closer to 5000, wasnt it Sleddy... :-laf

You know you always think you have the upper hand, but you and Shed puller have been doing this a long time, me a little over a year , funny , you don’t seem to have run in the 8’s yet , are any other engine builders of your back ground , meaning tractor pullers . Lets add up the real results, Scott Benz’s a former NHRA alcohol guy, or me a NHRA comp guy, starting to see a pattern, the best in the tractor pulling engine building, and the results are as best a disappointment, for the major budget spent, but we gas racers don’t know any thing about racing a diesel, well I’m glad we didn’t, because the old adage “IF YOU DO WHAT YOU HAVE ALWAYS DONE, YOU WILL GET WHAT YOU HAVE ALWAYS GOT”.



And as far as RPM is well over 6000,





Here is another number to put thru your hp calculator, from the splits at the Houston race I am confident the little truck will lay down a solid 8. 40, so the advantage of a onboard data acquisition system lets me see improvements in the G-meter, so 2940 lbs and say 8. 45 where dose that put you theory on the insignificant power I’m not making .

 

[Sled Puller]

COMP,

YOU may be a newcomer, but your engine builder, Dr. Performance, was around the Diesel market for a long time. And if I recall from your posts, a tractor puller finally got you pointed the right direction with your engine.



With Dr. P. backing you, together with your vast drag racing exprieence, you should have been in the 8s after about 10 passes. It totally amazes me after all of your talk, that 8s is all the faster you have gone. ( 2500 # car!!)



That said, dragracing is NOT the only motorsport in the world, and my truck will never run in the 8s or anything, because it does not belong on the black top.

Here, lets try the shoe on the other foot, put a pair of Cepeks on and hook your tupperware go fast trash to a sled, and let us see if it is a REAL truck or not. No? Didn't think so. I'll even bring in a garden tractor sled, cause you is so light.



I am a truck puller, and the first time I ever pulled a sled, was with my Diesel truck, at about 40,000 miles. That was in 2000. By 2002, I had won the biggest all Diesel event in the country. Big deal.



You have yet to win ANY all Diesel event. (have you even participated?)

Maybe you can git er done this year.



That was my third Dodge Cummins, but the first one I modified, the others were bone stock. So its not like I was born with Diesel smoke rolling out out of my tricycle.



Most of us are newcomers to this.



You have done nothing more impressive than anyone else.



As far as I'm concerned, (and I still choke on these words) MADDOG has the most impressive truck that is dragracing, because it is a REAL truck.



The rails and tupperware cars are fun to watch, but a novelty at best.

 

[Green Machine]

Sled- What makes a reall truck a truck? If it looks like a truck sounds like a truck then it must be a truck. But if you mean it can carry 10k in the bed and 80k on a trailor then my 02 3/4 is just a big car. There are diff strokes for diff fokes as you well know. I do like the fast ford but its not a truck! You can drive it/ race it but it has been gutted and striped for weight it is not what the factory called a truck when it came out. It can no longer do what it was intended to do. It just goes fast as heck and looks DAM good. There are a few race trucks up hear that are still reall trucks. Last time I saw it 3-4 of the drag racers hear still had full interior heaters/ac/am/fm/cd players reall glass and all the factory bells and crap. Heck one of them had a full load of crap in the bed and was using it for WORK. Heck three of them still has the factory seats in it and its driven everyday! Its the only Rig they have. So whats your point? I don't know but I don't have one eather. Im glad people are making Diesel Drag TRCUKS/ Rails and so forth. It will bring nothing but more people into the Diesel sport. Eather pulling/Dynoing/Draging/Braging. Keep up the good work Guys and let the smoke fly. Sled you have brought many people into your sport why cut down otheres and there sport just because you don't do it (YET). You have given me a lot of info that im using on my truck but I don't sled pull any more. Whats the big deal? Let Comp do his thing and you, well go do yours!



Hugs and Kisses

Ron R.





Now Back to YOUR tread Torque rocks !!!!

 

[Sled Puller]

Let Comp do his thing? He was the one I was responding to, when he said my truck wasn't in the 8s!!

He seems to think I'm suppossed to run 8 seconds with an 8000 pound street truck, that only has 500 hp.



I refuse to run in a sport, where they tell you to roll your window up in July, and then tell you to shut your A/C off. Jaggoffs. Next, they will ban stereos.

 

[Fletcher]

Let Comp do his thing? He was the one I was responding to, when he said my truck wasn't in the 8s!!

He seems to think I'm suppossed to run 8 seconds with an 8000 pound street truck, that only has 500 hp.



I refuse to run in a sport, where they tell you to roll your window up in July, and then tell you to shut your A/C off. Jaggoffs. Next, they will ban stereos.

Hey Sid, you need a bottle of Advil and a Yanni CD “Become one with the Ocean “ :-laf

 

[gtspowerstroke]

I do like the fast ford but its not a truck! You can drive it/ race it but it has been gutted and striped for weight it is not what the factory called a truck when it came out. It can no longer do what it was intended to do. It just goes fast as heck and looks DAM good.

Have you seen Maddogs truck in person? He still has the factory back seat in it as I recall. The only things I really saw that were removed for weight were the rear tank the spare tire and the tail gate. I'm not sure if he is running A/C or not but there were plenty of trucks out there that came with out A/C in it. His truck really isn't stripped down that much and I'd bet it weights as much or more than an off the showroom Duracrap. He may swap out injectors for street driveing but it is a full on daily driver TRUCK!

In fact, a bone stock 12A making only 100 ft. -lbs. of torque could be geared to pull an 18-wheeler up a steep hill, as long as we are not in any big hurry to get the job done.



Let’s say that it takes 10,000 lbs of force to pull a heavy weight up a hill. No problem! We could even do it with our stock 1980-GS in 4th gear if we are willing to build a custom ring and pinion gear with a ratio of 100 to 1. (100-ft. -lbs. times transmission gear ratio of 1:1 times ring and pinion gear ratio of 100:1 equals 10,000 ft. -lbs. )

This right here says a lot! Ya you can pull a large load with a low torque engine but at a VERY slow speed due to the gearing you would have to do to get it there. By haveing an engine with a LOT of torque you can move that same mass MUCH faster! Another good example would be when a diesel truck races a gas truck or car. A 7000# truck makeing 350hp and 700ft/lbs and a 5000# truck makeing 350hp and 400 ft/lbs races. The race will be real close due to the extra torque the heavier truck is makeing. Now even out the weight and the same amount of hp with the added torque is going to spank on it. I guess that's why my truck is so close to my bro's Lightning when we drag raced at the 1/8 mile last fall!

 

[COMP461]

Your forgetting Fetch’s or Hoss’s truck , both faster , my point is that tractor pulling and drag racing are two completely different designs on diesel motor theory’s . In the past you discounted what we drag racers have done as just light weight trucks , and nothing to it , and if a tractor puller had the same equipment , they could dominate drag racing. And for the record the truck weights 2940 at the completion of the run.



I will give a lot of credit to people like Brian Block and John Russin,. For teaching me the basics of diesel engine theory, but you are wrong if you think that they represent tractor pullers , as both have back grounds in drag racing , and High RPM diesel motor technology . you also forget that Doc did both the injectors ant the pump, on my truck and the more I begin to understand about the fuel side of a diesel , the more I see the unique direction that Doc is going in the design of the fuel system, that is actually a well thought out process . ever notice that my truck doesn’t smoke , its not because I clean up huge amounts of fuel , its that I use his pump and injectors to their maximum benefit and achieve a good fuel curve , never even using all the available rack travel , which I do data log rack travel ,on my truck and as of yet to use more then 73% .



I do have respect for what people like you Gene do in your sport , and just as you probably would be a fish out of water in drag racing , I also would in tractor pulling . Now I ask that you and others stop ascertaining that I am not achieving any thing unique , or impressive , and that any one could do it very easily if they had the money . you have only to look at the two other big budget diesel racer in the country to see that a wheelbarrow full of money doesn’t always put the best number on the score boards , and just because you have a lot of gee whizzes parts and engineering you still have to run it down the track. I don’t want to belittle them either , because they will eventually figure it out in time , or find some one like me to point them in the right direction. I know from the times and splits that the truck is running that this truck will get in the very low 8’s this year , and if the money is available to do every thing I have envisioned , a 7 second diesel truck will be come more then tabloid fantasies. The splits indicates a low 8. 40 run which should put the hp level at around 1050 , this and the fact that it will turn 6000 rpm’s , should make some what of a accomplishment , unless the knowledge to do this is just simple and every one could , event the other teams .





Just a thought

 

[Sled Puller]

You have got to quit making stories up about Brian Block.

 

[Fletcher]

Have you seen Maddogs truck in person? He still has the factory back seat in it as I recall. The only things I really saw that were removed for weight were the rear tank the spare tire and the tail gate. I'm not sure if he is running A/C or not but there were plenty of trucks out there that came with out A/C in it. His truck really isn't stripped down that much and I'd bet it weights as much or more than an off the showroom Duracrap. He may swap out injectors for street driveing but it is a full on daily driver TRUCK!







This right here says a lot! Ya you can pull a large load with a low torque engine but at a VERY slow speed due to the gearing you would have to do to get it there. By haveing an engine with a LOT of torque you can move that same mass MUCH faster! Another good example would be when a diesel truck races a gas truck or car. A 7000# truck makeing 350hp and 700ft/lbs and a 5000# truck makeing 350hp and 400 ft/lbs races. The race will be real close due to the extra torque the heavier truck is makeing. Now even out the weight and the same amount of hp with the added torque is going to spank on it. I guess that's why my truck is so close to my bro's Lightning when we drag raced at the 1/8 mile last fall!

His truck is 5898 (per a NHRA mandated scaling)

Just not quite powerful enough to catch Ernie……. . :-laf

 

[COMP461]

Have you seen Maddogs truck in person? He still has the factory back seat in it as I recall. The only things I really saw that were removed for weight were the rear tank the spare tire and the tail gate. I'm not sure if he is running A/C or not but there were plenty of trucks out there that came with out A/C in it. His truck really isn't stripped down that much and I'd bet it weights as much or more than an off the showroom Duracrap. He may swap out injectors for street driveing but it is a full on daily driver TRUCK!

Its common Knowledge that Maddog Tuck is a little lighter then most believe , he was weighed at the track , and the truth it was just under 6000 lbs , still a heavy truck to run that fast , but what about Fletch’s truck or Hoss , both are around his weight and faster.

Weight is something I spend a great deal of money and time getting rid of , just got my crank back from the crank shop , and its 24 lbs lighter , this was a nice bit of weight .

This right here says a lot! Ya you can pull a large load with a low torque engine but at a VERY slow speed due to the gearing you would have to do to get it there. By haveing an engine with a LOT of torque you can move that same mass MUCH faster! Another good example would be when a diesel truck races a gas truck or car. A 7000# truck makeing 350hp and 700ft/lbs and a 5000# truck makeing 350hp and 400 ft/lbs races. The race will be real close due to the extra torque the heavier truck is makeing. Now even out the weight and the same amount of hp with the added torque is going to spank on it. I guess that's why my truck is so close to my bro's Lightning when we drag raced at the 1/8 mile last fall!

Torque is easy to get down the track , but not faster , if both trucks weight the same and make the same hp , but one at a lower RPM , which equals more torque , it would be faster to a guy that doesn’t have the experience to use the motor in the power band .



The theories , I use to get down the track aren’t anything mystical, just something that is common knowledge to any maximum effort drag racer , that also uses a torque converter, this is only the practice of a few , in the super stock and competition eliminator ranks in NHRA . the principals are simple

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

The drag racers and sled pullers aren't totally different in terms of engines. All of the big sled pullers are making LOTS of rpm out of a diesel... they pioneered it.



back to the topic...



Carrol Shelby wasn't a drag racer. he was a road racer. It's an entirely different game from both sled pulling and drag racing. A motor with mountains of torque is able to run lower rpms. in a 24hr race if you can run lower rpm and not sling a rod through the block you're ahead of the game. technology exists today to allow a high reving motor to live longer. a smaller high reving motor (the judd motor is only 177ci) will have a weight advantage over a torque producing bigger motor.



Look at the motocross races of late... the 4 strokes are winning because of their wide TORQUE band. They are able to apply the HP they have in a wider variety of situations and require less finess to squeeze they power out on to the dirt. they also live longer and break less.



The statement is not true in all situations but is was true for Shelby when it was said.



Later,

Mark

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

Fletcher, Hoss, how much does your truck weigh when you are drag racing?

 

[gtspowerstroke]

Fletcher, How much does a new duramx weigh? From what I've heard they are in the mid to lo 6000# range. How much is "earnie" weighing in these days? If I had to guess I'd say a bit less than what Maddogs truck is.

 

[gtspowerstroke]

Carrol Shelby wasn't a drag racer. he was a road racer. It's an entirely different game from both sled pulling and drag racing. A motor with mountains of torque is able to run lower rpms. in a 24hr race if you can run lower rpm and not sling a rod through the block you're ahead of the game.

Good point. Look at the GT40 when it was in the european races when it spanked on Ferari. It spanked them so bad they had to change the rules to make it so that it couldn't race anymore with that big torquey engine!

 

[Graphic man]

HP wins races!!

 

[COMP461]

drag racing is about hp, if you have hp you can gear to make torque

 

[J.Davy]

Well put!I think that statement holds true for just about all forms if motored racing.

 

[MADDOG2]

Its common Knowledge that Maddog Tuck is a little lighter then most believe , he was weighed at the track , and the truth it was just under 6000 lbs , still a heavy truck to run that fast , but what about Fletch’s truck or Hoss , both are around his weight and faster.

Weight is something I spend a great deal of money and time getting rid of , just got my crank back from the crank shop , and its 24 lbs lighter , this was a nice bit of weight .









Torque is easy to get down the track , but not faster , if both trucks weight the same and make the same hp , but one at a lower RPM , which equals more torque , it would be faster to a guy that doesn’t have the experience to use the motor in the power band .



The theories , I use to get down the track aren’t anything mystical, just something that is common knowledge to any maximum effort drag racer , that also uses a torque converter, this is only the practice of a few , in the super stock and competition eliminator ranks in NHRA . the principals are simple

Hey COMP the know-it-all you mind telling me where my truck was weighed? and where you there to see it? or are you just basing your BS on what Mr. smarty pants Fletch told you? For starters my truck has "Never" been on the scales at any event period. So old Fletchers friends brothers half sister that's married to her first cousin didn't see jack!!!

My truck with my big butt in it weighs 7000lbs in drag racing form which is I take the tailgate off, the rear bumper is a fiberglass roll pan, the rear fuel tank is gone, no spare tire, and no rear seat. The truck has a custom hitch behind the roll pan and will pull a trailer with Fletchers truck on it with ease cross county with the AC blowing cold air, and the cruise control set at 85. :-laf

Anyone want to bet that Fletchers truck is at least 1800lbs lighter than my truck? In fact Fletch how about we put this issue to rest by setting up a time and place to officially weigh our trucks and you pick who inspects my truck before it goes on the scales and I get to pick who inspects your truck. But wait that's not all we could then roll them on the dyno and see who makes the most horsepower on diesel only (we could use the same inspectors) so there was no funny stuff :-laf and then for the big event we could line them up and run on just #2 ( no stopping in the pits and throwing the nitrous in after you have convinced everyone by raising the nitrous bottle above your head that your first run was on diesel only) :-laf

Do you think we could sells tickets to this event? :{ :-laf