Hydraulic winch and potential for loosing brakes?

[Coalsmoke]

I am looking at getting either the Warn m12000 or the Milemarker 12000lb hydraulic that runs off of the power steering pump. What I am trying to figure out is if something went wrong and I lost fluid, broke a hose / line, or burnt out my pump, what would the consequences be.



Burning out the pump seems pretty basic, no power steering and no winch, but still steerable to get home, right?



Lost fluid / broken line = burnt out pump but also no power brake assist, or are there no brakes at all :--) ????



Please help me clear this up. All of my searches have revealed a little info about this and a little info about that, but I can't seem to figure out for certain how dead I would be.



Many many thanks,

Stephan

 

[Texas Diesel]

yes you can steer w/o the PS pump, but very tough, brakes would be a both foot affair

I've never heard of anyone damaging a PS pump while using a hydraulic winch. People use them at the hill climbs (jeep events) all day with no probs. The valving favors the steering system over the winch. Your PS system operates in the pressure relief mode nearly 100% of the time anyway and the winch operates on the excess flow. Much better choice than the electric winches for serious winching.

 

[y-knot]

Why make it so difficult? Will not a electric model work? I don't know your situation, but most of us do not use or need a winch everyday, or for very long. The added complexity and potential for leeks seems to out weight the advantages of a hydraulic winch. Yes the electric models can burn out, and maybe they are slower, but they do not jeopardies the trucks mechanicals and they cost half what the hydraulic units sell for.

 

[TBrennan]

The electrics I looked at (Warn) where as much or more than the hydraulics (Milemarker) of similar capacity.



The hydraulics shouldn't be really any more difficult to install vs. electrics as I see it. Power steering hose vs. big electric cables.

 

[Coalsmoke]

I'm worried about getting myself in some serious gumbo, or having to winch 50' up a hill, where I'm worried that the electric might burn out / over heat. Given that they are the same price (roughly), I'm trying to decide whether the potential for mechanical problems in the hydraulic outweighs the constant duty cycle. I have very little experience with winches, so that is why I am asking. I really appreicate the input.

 

[Texas Diesel]

I cant recall a single failure (other than worn cable) with a hydraulic winch. If you do serious winching you CAN burn out your alternator though, best bet ( I follow it too ) is to take a friend with me, that way we can pull each other out, I usually let him lead :-laf The hydraulic motors are continous duty rated, wonder what the series wound 12V motors are rated? Hint, about 20% duty cycle.

 

[CFAR]

Where are you finding a Hydraulics for the same price as an electric?

Oh I see,



MM - Hydraulic = $1,134. 13 http://www.4wheelparts.com/product2.asp?imseqn=1117&occlass=MILE&cat=WIN



MM - Electric = $599. 99 http://www.4wheelparts.com/product2.asp?imseqn=1121&occlass=MILE&cat=WIN



Warn - Electric = $1,155. 08 http://www.4wheelparts.com/product2.asp?imseqn=663&occlass=WARN&cat=WINCHES





So you can buy a MM Hyd for less than a Warn Electric, Hmmmmm.



All 12k

 

[y-knot]

CS, how long have you had the truck?

 

[Coalsmoke]

Less than half a year. This is partly why I'm asking so many questions as I am used to cars, not so much trucks, but I'm catching on.

 

[BV]

Have you thought of running a hydraulic pump off a PTO on the transmission or TCase if you have the HD version? It would eliminate the worry of loosing the PS function if a line broke.



Also - You might consider having quick connect lines so you can by-pass the winch if something happened.



BTW - Only heard of one failure of a hose and that was on a rig where the owner used his already old hoses with new fittings

 

[DougKrebs]

Serious off-road people use an electric winch. Why an electric? It runs when your engine doesn't.



I have a warn HS9500i and I've had it for a couple years now. My first love was mudding in a 88K5 blazer with 35's. I've rarely used it for myself, mostly for others, but I'm glad I've had it.



When have I used it when my motor wasn't running? Crossing a river and the intake got splashed and killed the motor. Winched myself to the bank, took out all 8 spark plugs and pumped the water out.



Also, in deep mud when the nasty goo i was in created to much back pressure and killed my motor.



I will admit hydraulic winches have there place on wrecker's and if you know your engine isn't going to die, but I'll take my electric winch for offroading.



By the way, I've pulled many hard pulls, probably 10-15 full 115ft pulls, sometimes twice in a row and the winch has never let me down offroad.



Recently, I didn't clean the winch out after water had somehow got in after a trip and the brake gummed it self to the housing and this caused a shaft on a planatery gear to break. This was my fault and was a mechanical problem, not and electric motor problem. Actually the motor broke the shaft!



Warn replaced it for free because they have a lifetime guarantee on the drivetrain of the winch!

 

[TBrennan]

Originally posted by DougKrebs

Serious off-road people use an electric winch. Why an electric? It runs when your engine doesn't.

How long does it take to kill a battery with a 9000 lb winch and no alternator charging it? Not long I think.



Oh, and you better call the Army and let them know they are not "serious off-road people" since they are replacing all the Hummer electric winches with hydraulics.

 

[DougKrebs]

Originally posted by TBrennan

How long does it take to kill a battery with a 9000 lb winch and no alternator charging it? Not long I think.



Oh, and you better call the Army and let them know they are not "serious off-road people" since they are replacing all the Hummer electric winches with hydraulics.

Actually I have 2 batteries, one yellow top and one red top. I've never had to use both, or ran one down and had to resort to the other. It's not like you need to winch all day without the motor on, it's just nice to know you don't need the motor running.



I bet i could do 1-2 full pulls on my yellow top and still be able to start.



By the way, hummer's suck at offroading, granted H1's are better than the H2's, they still suck. I've seen one stuck before in mud and it's not pretty. Hummer's are just too wide and too heavy.



I'm not here to downplay hummers or hydraulic winches, I was just stating that most people in the offroad community prefer electric winches and what the benefit's were.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Coalsmoke: Since your truck is a '95, doesn't it have vacuum assisted brakes?



If so, you won't loose your brakes if something happens to the power steering system.



The late model F-series trucks with hydroboost brakes have a problem where the OEM power steering pump doesn't put out enough flow/pressure to run both the steering and the brakes.



So... during low speed operations... like in a parking lot... you'll have brakes but the power steering will suffer. Ford knows about the issue and I haven't heard of a fix yet... .



Matt

 

[TBrennan]

Originally posted by DougKrebs

By the way, hummer's suck at offroading, granted H1's are better than the H2's, they still suck. I've seen one stuck before in mud and it's not pretty. Hummer's are just too wide and too heavy.

Not that this anything to do with the original points at all but, I will put a stock H1 (the Army doesn't care about H2s) against a stock Ram any day for offroading. To say the H1 "sucks offroad" is, well, dumb in my opinion.



Now back to the subject at hand. With a diesel we basically need 2 batteries anyway. The poster is talking about putting a winch in a diesel truck right? So you should probably make them both yellowtops for winching duty. Factor that into the cost of an electric winch for another $300.



My biggest problem with electrics is how much heat they generate (waisting energy) and how hard they have to work the motor for the same result. It can't be good for the longevity of the unit.

 

[DougKrebs]

To tell you the truth, I had thought about getting a milemarker hydraulic winch with quick connects so I could mount it front or rear. Don't get me wrong, they are good because they don't get hot and they can pull forever, but if I could only get one winch i'd get a decent electric one.



When I build my future all purpose rig Blazer with dana 60 front/14bolt rear and a cummins I want an electric winch and either a hydraulic or pto winch.



By the way, I didn't mean hummer's suck offroad, even though thats what I said. An H1 would definately beat a stock dodge offroad. What I really wanted to say was for serious offroading they are not capable. They are good for what they are built for and can take a serious amount of abuse. No way would you catch me taking my blazer into a combat zone.

 

[Coalsmoke]

As a matter of fact, I do think that it is vaccuum assted / boosted brakes. It has the big black diaphram / cylinder on the master cylinder, and I didn't notice and lines going to the power steering pump. Thanks for correcting me on this. Is there a problem with these trucks stalling out / motor will just quite running on too steep of an incline? I think it is the newer ones that loose the oil right? I have been told that the 12000lb winch is not rated to be put on a normal class 4 hitch. I could be wrong, but I think the thought was that it would exceed the hitches limitations.



I have thought heavily about doing the auxiliary pto pump, but for the money involved, I would just run it off of the power steering pump and carry a bypass hose incase something sprung a leak.



With all of this great input I am receiving, I think I am leaning more and more towards the electric winch. I like the fact that the motor doesn't have to be running, and if something cooks, it is only a couple hundred for a new motor. I think it would be difficult to find a power steering pump for that cheap. Also with too batteries, I can see the scenario where a person drained one too far, they could still use the second for starting purposes, although since they are in parrallel, I guess they would just drain evenly wouldn't they. One could always use a disconnect / battery isolator, as long as the mighty cummins actually could start with just one battery.

 

[JohnMcIntyre]

Electric versus hydraulic winches?

Originally posted by y-knot

..... electric models cost half what the hydraulic units sell for.....

That's an illusion - and I must disagree with you on that point. Let me explain why.....



A WINCH IS RATHER LIKE A FIRE EXTINGUISHER, absolutely useless if it doesn’t work when you really need it and just as useless, if it only puts out half the fire. If you are going to the expense and trouble of fitting a winch to your 4x4, it needs to work every single time, whether it is recovering you from a small ditch, or a 200 metre long mud hole.



RELIABILITY may seem a pretty boring attribute, especially when applied to Motorsport, in the same way that “Safety” used to be considered. Well the Milemarker hydraulic winch is reliable and because it provides inexhaustible power, that 200 metre bog hole will be child’s play, instead of a nightmare.



So how do the comparative costs stack up? Let's consider some typical, but conservative, ballpark figures... . (based upon European pricing, coverted back into US$)



ELECTRIC WINCH $800 will buy a 4 metric tonne rated cheap winch and a big bag of accessories, but hang on..... you'll need a winch mount, so add another $200, but that's still only $1,000.....



You can't wait to use it, but then it doesn't quite perform as you expect, because the guy who sold it to you or recommended it, has twin Optima batteries powering his and you don't. Oh well, another $200, plus a carrier, wiring, split charge system at another $200. It soon mounts up. Can you take care of the installation yourself or will you have to shell out for that too?



That's much better, but you are now up to $1,400 for what is still a cheap and flawed winch system. Be grateful that your CTD comes equipped with a decent HD alternator - take pity on the Landrover guys out there relying on a wimpy 65amp stock alternator, because in their case, the potential spend hasn't stopped yet, when you take allowance for a spare motor and solenoids, ($200) just in case.....



HYDRAULIC Now examine the hydraulic Milemarker solution. $1,000 will buy you a complete system, powered from the vehicle's own hydraulic pump. It's not super fast, but it'll pull you out of almost anything you get stuck in and your friends too, when they get stuck.



The Milemarker hydraulic system can also be enhanced with some upgrades if you really need them when you have the cash. More importantly, the full-blown system costs another $250 more and then you'll get 4. 7 metric tonnes of real pulling power. Either way your winch will still be working when a third electric winch has cremated itself... ... and just think, you can spend the money and time you have saved on a set of diff-lockers, new tyres, under-body protection, or even a newer vehicle and transfer the winch across.



INSTALLATION A typical Hydraulic winch installation takes a good day for the full blown, 4. 7 tonne dedicated pump system, or slightly longer on non-standard vehicles. I know, coz BTDT. The installer needs a modicum of mechanical knowledge, but no special tools are required.



An electric winch can be installed slightly quicker than this, but if extra batteries are needed and a split-charging system and up-rated alternator are required, then you are looking at a good few days.



READY FOR ACTION When you use your Milemarker hydraulic winch you set up for a straight pull and let the winch get on with it, concentrating only on safety. Keeping yourself and others away from the danger zone, until the winching has been completed, when you pack up and drive away. Pretty simple really.



With an electric winch this slight drama becomes a crisis, especially in the mud where electric winches are not supposed to be used anyway. Anyway, snatch blocks out, a stopwatch to monitor the running time, a temperature sensor and box of spares at the ready. Rev the hell out of the engine to charge the battery and then learn a sign language to communicate over all the din that your vehicle and winch is making. What is all that about?



With a 4. 6hp super-motor It looked so fast in the demo, yet you have been there for half an hour and you are still stuck. And the "drive-assistance" you were taught has you buried even deeper.



Why do you think..... ?



1. Most hydraulic winches are used in professional applications.

2. You very rarely see second hand hydraulic winches for sale.

3. Hydraulic winches are synonomous with reliability and durability.



You know which one makes sense... .

 

[HoleshotHolset]

John layed it all out in that post.



NICE post, John!



Matt

 

[CFAR]

Swish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



All net on that one.....