I feel bad for this guy...

[mwilson]

Got a call from a one truck customer this morning. .



He rebuilt his 14L Detroit 60 Series with some assistance from his mechanic friend, bought $11,000. 00 dollars worth of parts from us.



Cylinder head, 6 cylinder kits, lower bearing kit, 6 injectors, etc.



Put it together and it went 1 mile before driving a rod out the side of the block, blew the ECM right off of the mounts.



I get to tell him that Detroit will only help with parts, no labor. If the motor is not overhauled at a certified shop then there will be no help with labor.



I don't know at this point if he timed it wrong or if there is a defective component.

I do know that we all feel bad for the guy and told him to yank the head and tell us what he sees.

Also if he will pull the engine out of the truck and haul it down to us we will do a failure analysis. If Detroit Diesel components caused the issue we will try to help. It is a tough spot for us when a customer chooses to do his own work.





Sometimes when you are dealing with the tool that you make your living with you are far better off on certain procedures such as a major overhaul to take it to a dealer so that you have some warranty coverage to fall back on.



Mike.

 

[jgillott]

I feel bad for him also. I'm as guilty as anyone in that I still do most of the work on my vehicles myself. I haven't priced a major on a series 60, but I don't imagine that he was saving much with that $11K price tag on his parts alone. Factor in the downtime, and you have quite an investment.

 

[Wingate]

Weren't the series 60 engines known for spitting connecting rods thru the cylinder block from time to time? We ahve a customer that used to run a fleet of them and has since switched to Cats, their maintenance shop has about 15 Series 60's behind the shop with holes in the block... . !!

BTW, im talking Industrials, not truck engines...

 

[mwilson]

There were some in the 450000 to 499000 Serial Number Ranges that would spit the rod out the side if you went over a half million miles or so without a bearing roll.



So probably in industrial that would be 10,000 hours or thereabouts. If you did the lower end at that time they were fine, but it was a mistake to ignore that weakness and keep on truckin'... ... ...



Mike.

 

[TFucili]

My brother-in-law drove a tri-axle dump for a guy, and it had a 60 Series. They had tremendous issues with it, and it finally detonated big-time. Because it had over a certain mileage, Detroit would not supply a complete engine, and instead made the dealer go through it piecemeal. They reassembled it, and it blew up on the dyno. His boss was not a happy camper.

 

[HBarlow]

Do it yourself projects often cost more than paying the professional who has the knowledge and skill to do the job right the first time. The owner in this thread is out $20 - $30k, perhaps even more considering lost earnings from the truck.

In my old age I have learned that it is better to pay the man who has the professional knowledge and skill rather than screw it up myself then pay the man who knows how to do the job.

When I was young and cars and light trucks were simple and cheap I rebuilt engines, replaced clutches, transmissions, axles, and all the small parts. I don't work on anything more complex than a flashlight now.

 

[NIsaacs]

This is not a part failure, it is an install failure. Someone screwed up. I would like to see what part of the rod that failed. I would guess it separated at the cap/journal... ... maybe forgot to reset torque wrench after the mains and cracked the rod bolts or forgot to torque one and it was loose. I know this sounds kind of backyard but if it only went about a mile, thats a bad sign and points to the mechanic.



Nick

 

[Bill Stockard]

Yep, I've seen similar instances with a Cummins and a couple of I-H DT series diesels that were "shade tree" overhauled. What's the old saying... "pay me now or pay double later for someone to fix your mistakes".



He gambled and lost.



Bill

 

[mwilson]

He may have mis-timed it.



We grenaded a couple of 60 series engines here years ago that way.



After swallowing that loss we modified our procedure.



Even though there are timing marks the only safe way to do one is to remove #1 injector and check the timing with a dial indicator BEFORE you tear it down.



The specific model of the engine and Jake Brake used make several timing settings possible.



We have been held back a few times in the school of hard knocks but we do learn eventually... ... .



Mike.

 

[NIsaacs]

I can't see where a timing issue would cause a rod failure, but I can see where it could cause a piston to fail, but I don't know squat about the newer electronic engines. I would think that if it was timed close enough to start and run, the rods would be safe but pistons or valves might crater.



Nick

 

[mwilson]

He claims that there is a pair of keepers laying in the head and one valve stem is down about an inch. If it dropped a valve it should have simply penetrated or tatooed the piston, but who knows.

Will be anxious to see the carnage when he gets it down here.



I told him to yank the head and see if he had contact marks on the other pistons, etc... .



So many things that it could be... ... ...



Mike.

 

[Wingate]

There were some in the 450000 to 499000 Serial Number Ranges that would spit the rod out the side if you went over a half million miles or so without a bearing roll.



So probably in industrial that would be 10,000 hours or thereabouts. If you did the lower end at that time they were fine, but it was a mistake to ignore that weakness and keep on truckin'... ... ...



Mike.

Thats pretty bad if they wont run beyond 10K hours without failing...

We typically run the overhead at 5K intervals... Unless something happens like a drain plug falling out, they typically go 20-25K hours before opening them up.

 

[KRStone]

Do it yourself projects often cost more than paying the professional who has the knowledge and skill to do the job right the first time.

Hard part is knowing who is "professional" and who is a hack. You can pay the pro price and still get the botched job. It's tough to know who really is capable.

 

[mwilson]

As time goes on in the truck and diesel engine world the OEM's are going to be the ones to go to, that is not the way that I would like to see it but it is already in motion.

Smaller shops can not afford or are simply not eligible for the training needed to properly repair the big diesels.

For example Detroit requires techs to have G2 Training and that is monitored to ensure that the techs are up on the latest.

If a Detroit repair facility loses the G2 rating they then lose the ability to order Detroit Parts or submit warranty claims.

We pay a young fortune for training, software, tools and monthly fees, a smaller facility would have to charge $200. 00 per hour to try and cover those costs alone.

Also, when you do several of the same type of engine a week the skill level increases rapidly, the tools are on hand and the parts department has the parts. Also any special procedures, updates, etc. are common knowledge after the second week.



Small shops are going to have a hell of a time in a few more years, at least for engine work. Transmissions will follow suit as they become more automated and integrated into the powertrain.



It's coming, like it or not.



Mike.

 

[HBarlow]

Hard part is knowing who is "professional" and who is a hack. You can pay the pro price and still get the botched job. It's tough to know who really is capable.

Sad but true. There are more posers and frauds masquerading as skilled mechanics that the real thing in every profession.

 

[E7mack96]

I have to agree with mwilson. . Dealers are gonna be where its at. The place I currently wrench at does not even care about G2, ect. . they let anyone touch/destroy these engines. . I had G2 training for everything up to DD15 at the last shop (big orange trucks) and this new place wont even let me get online to maintain it. . and they dont send techs for training til they are there 5 yrs. . WTF ... I tell ya, I'd like to work for a Freightliner dealer. . It'd be a dream to have tools and parts and support. . at the same time LOL. .



sorry for the quasi-rant...

 

[dclassens]

There is no better thread to prove the benefits of Virtual Technician than this one. If I remember right, Mike has already done a write up on this topic. We have 2 trucks on order with this technology, but what a great idea and great way to stay on top of proper truck monitoring and maintenance.



http://www.demanddetroit.com/pdf/support/Virtual-Technician-Sell-Sheet.pdf

 

[Bill Stockard]

As time goes on in the truck and diesel engine world the OEM's are going to be the ones to go to, that is not the way that I would like to see it but it is already in motion.

Smaller shops can not afford or are simply not eligible for the training needed to properly repair the big diesels.

For example Detroit requires techs to have G2 Training and that is monitored to ensure that the techs are up on the latest.

If a Detroit repair facility loses the G2 rating they then lose the ability to order Detroit Parts or submit warranty claims.

We pay a young fortune for training, software, tools and monthly fees, a smaller facility would have to charge $200. 00 per hour to try and cover those costs alone.

Also, when you do several of the same type of engine a week the skill level increases rapidly, the tools are on hand and the parts department has the parts. Also any special procedures, updates, etc. are common knowledge after the second week.



Small shops are going to have a hell of a time in a few more years, at least for engine work. Transmissions will follow suit as they become more automated and integrated into the powertrain.



It's coming, like it or not.



Mike.

Yep, the small shops using after market parts are being squeezed out just like the small dealerships... economy of operation. The operating costs are too high spread over a small market area and customer base. I could see that beginning over 25 years ago as vehicles became more complicated and the manufacturers requiring more inventoried parts, specialized equipment, and training to service them.



Bill