Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) I think that OAT* has a great deal to do with VP44 failure.

[RJWEST]

Gary, that was my understanding, But I was trying to determine if
repeat fails were other problems or still the brass sleeve on older rebuilds.
Would be nice to feel that my relibility problems are over... or at less improved.

 

[Mcescolini]

Mine died last week and left me on the side of the road 80 miles from home. It has 58100 miles on it. Cruise control at 75mph and then silence, no codes no indication of anything wrong. The codes that came up when we scanned it are 1688 {internal inj. pump failure} and 1689 { no com between ecm and inj pump}. Basicly the computer board fried. So now looking for the best performance pump for the money. Any hints as to who makes the best pump with the best longevity????

 

[16919]

Probably a Blue Chip special X... ... . I think thats what its called or a hotrod pump from Industrial Injection.

 

[rweis]

Does anyone know if:



Can you open the pump cover to the advance piston and see if yours is the brass or the steel sleve? AND if you can is that VERBOTTEN? You may not be able to SEE the sleeve, I do not know. For sure messing with the advance piston would not be a good idea. You may not even be able to see it while it is mounted in place due to where it is? No idea.



Not mess with anything, just look and see what YOU have.



Bob Weis

 

[Turbo Tim 1]

From other threads I've seen it seems like the 2002 trucks eat more VP's than other years! We know the early one could die when the pump wire was tapped but other than that just look at this thread, there are a few 2002 guys replying.



What changed in 2002? Hood liner, rear wheel well liners, CAD, ?????. So why would the 02's appear to eat more VP's? Could the wheel well liners of changed the air flow through the engine compartment? How about the hood liner, maybe the sun beating on the hood warms it up too much when sitting? Or maybe it's a cyclic thing and the lack of a liner allows the VP to cool much quicker when the truck sits.



My 01 must have a brass sleeve in it and I have 175,000 miles on it and it's had a comp for over 130,000 of those miles. The 01 model year was the longest of any but I think if you look at a poll Gary started on years of failures you'll find the 02 is more prone to it, so the question is why?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

There IS a cover accessible from the outside of the pump into the advance cylinder - but I'm not sure how much can be seen of the liner by just removing the cover - and it is VERY hard to get the piston back if if it's removed from the bore...

 

[rweis]

Turbo Tim 1 -



Gary and I have been doing VP44 cooling experimenting for about 2 years. I am absolutely convenced that heat on the 02 VP44 is a problem. That is why Gary & I developed fuel cooling unlike others have done, replacing fuel return lines unlike others have done, return lines going to tank vent line like some others have done, replacing fuel feed lines like some others have done, DrawStraw like some others have done, AND OAT blower directly to the VP44 during ALL engine operation AND 1 1/2 hr AFTER shutdown to keep engine block heat off the VP44 unlike others have done.



I have been monitoring input fuel temps, VP44 electronic bay cover (EBC), VP44 return line temps for over a year now.



I had a '02 OEM VP44 replaced by DC summer '04. Since then Gary and I have been experimenting with VP44 cooling.



This past July/07 towing 13k 5er, OAT was 105* input fuel was 125*, output fuel was 145*, EBC was 115* (notice less than input fuel temps and I think actually using the VP44 EBC as a fuel cooler). Bosch max input fuel temp is 160*. I was within 25* of max fuel input temp, I can only imagine what a stock fuel system would have been. I get 20* OUT of return fuel, I would bet most others do not.



I would literally be willing to say that unmodified fuel pickup (OEM restricted in the filter basket in the tank cannister), then however you want to get it to the VP44, unmodified fuel return lines (1. way too small a return line (1/8" id), 2. that dump the hot fuel right back in the fuel cannister pickup) will develop well past the 160* limit.



The PSG in the EBC is a soldered circuit board. Solder starts to melt about 140*, add to that the engine vibration shaking the PSG soft solder (because of fuel heat > 140*). This ALL ASSUMES good input psi (13. 5 psi +- 3 psi), good input volume (RASP, FASS, AIRDOG, Walbro, etc), clean fuel, no water in fuel, lubricity additive.



I would like to see your fuel return line id first, maybe there was a change?, then I would like to see your fuel cannister pickup filter basket, maybe a change?, then let's look at wheel well liners, maybe a change?, then let's look at ??????



I do not know what changed, but regardless of what it is / was I know for a fact that I can keep my VP44 (fuel and body) cooler than yours and my theory is THEN my VP44 operating tolerances are not as tight as yours because my VP44 internal parts are cooler (not as hot and expanded) than yours. My VP44 has less stress than yours because of lower temperatures, and I am betting it will last a very long time IF I do not have the brass advance piston sleeve (which I may).



I only have 30k on the "new" VP44 and it may take several years to get to the 250k experimentation mileage proof.



Bob Weis

 

[Crazy Horse]

Outside air temperature definitely has something to do with the fuel flow. Since last Aug-Sept I've had a fuel guage in the truck and running the Walbro it's constantly read between 15-18 under all circumstances. Recently the guage has fluxuated some (between 12-15) on occation and dropped near 12psi. This has only occured over the last few weeks a couple of times when the outside temps have been somewhere between upper 90's and 125 (in the sun). It also only seems to happen when the truck sits in the sun 4-5 hours. It doesn't happen when driving or on a hot restart.



I'm going to change the fuel filters (factory & 24 micron pre-filter) next week end to see what that does. The filters have been in a little over 10,000 miles. I don't think restriction is showing the recent change in guage readings. I think it's the fuel viscosity changing (thinning) with the hot temps. I also think it's only going to get worse with the thin dry fuels they are coming out with for emission mandates. It would be nice if the oil companies did a little more research into fuel before they put it out on the market.

 

[rweis]

I know for a fact that when the input fuel temperature goes over 100* I see a 1 psi drop in input psi. I agree totally with your idea of fuel viscosity changing with fuel temperature.



I see that every day on the way home from work when the OAT is 95* + (input fuel temp is 105*), not on the way to work in the morning when the OAT is 80* (input fuel temp is 90*). Every day.



I have a RASP that is doing pleanty of volume and regardless of the volume there is a 1 psi drop when the fuel thins (at least that is what I attribute it to), and it does not show the 1 psi drop until 100* input fuel temperature.



I also put Stanadyne PF in every tank to aid in lubricity.



I have been advised by RACOR (SouthEast Power Systems, Tampa location and Orlando location) to change fuel filters every 10,000 miles eventhough I have way bigger than necessary fuel filters which should be able to go further than standard. They still said, 10,000 miles regardless.



Another idea as to why the VP44 fails in the summer time. Thinner fuel, less psi, less lubricity, and maybe the lubricity falls below some critical threshold needed to keep the VP44 operating smoothly.



All the reasons I cool the fuel and cool the VP44 body to the maximum extent I know how to extend the life of the VP44.



Bob Weis

 

[gahorn]

RWeis and Gary-K7GLD
I'm sure that I am not alone in thanking both of you for all the time and testing you two have done over the years. As a new member to TDR, I have spent many hours searching and reading older posts from back at the beginning when you guys started getting into the basics as to why the VP44 has operation problems under various conditions and began looking into cooling the fuel and the VP44. Although I have had my '01 RAM 2500 for 6 years, I have never really done anything to the truck other than normal maintenance. My lift pump failed earlier this year and now I am getting code P0216 along with once daily "dead pedal". Since I am learning and reading as much as possible in order to correct the problem, I still would appreciate some help or guidance in taking the proper steps to lower the incidence of this occurring again in the near future. I let the dealership replace the lift pump, which of course they relocated to the tank. I plan on doing the remainder of correcting any fuel related problems myself so please bear with me and my basic questions:
1) Since the LP is now in the tank - what are my options for optimizing fuel flow, ie. how do I get a system that is similar to either of yours? Can I remove this pump and get something better or what are my options?
2) rweis - you show in your sig line VP fuel coolers, OAT Blower - do you have pictures of your fuel line setup that you are willing to share or can you point me to posts in the forum that explain all of this?
3) gary-K7GLD - I noticed on a picture that I saw in a post of your engine compartment a fuel filter setup by the battery - is this in addition to the stock fuel filter; if so is this helpful and how is it installed?
4) You both use different LP's one the RASP system and the other a Walbro
rweis - the RASP is mechanical if I read correctly and is used in conjunction with the stock LP, right? Would this work in my case?
gary - Does the Walbro replace my in tank LP or what?

Really appreciate any advice you can give me because being an 'ole gearhead, I have no problems with conventional gasoline engines or motorcycles, but diesel technology is a whole new thing for me. I just wished I would have began this quest a few years earlier

Thanks everyone for being patient

Gary

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

FIRST, and for the record, my own involvement in various fuel system related issues was greatly influenced and motivated by Bob's work - by ALL means, he deserves major credit for his encouragement, and own work in isolating and correcting key issues with these systems.



The sub-micron Frantz filters I use, oil bypass and fuel filter, purely supplement the OEM stuff, which is all still in place and functional.



As to the Walbro in my specific installation, it is the ONLY pump in normal operation, but the OEM LP has been relocated to the frame downstream from the Walbro and the Walbro pumps both thru and around it via an external mechanical bypass valving arrangement I made up - the Walbro has the same bypass valving as well, and if it fails, the OEM LP can be engaged, and will then suck fuel around the Walbro as an emergency measure, and until a proper replacement/repair can be made.



Prior to the Walbro, I had been using the relocated OEM LP and also an added Carter 7 PSI pusher pump - also with a mechanical bypass valve - I merely traded the Walbro for the pusher pump, leaving the rest of the system as it had been for 50,000 trouble free miles - the Walbro is just another experiment, I've NEVER had an OEM LP or pusher fail on me!



I see no reason why the Walbro couldn't be installed and operated in conjunction with an in-tank pump, and believe some users have theirs installed that way - but it's vast overkill, since the Walbro has FAR more volume and PSI capabilities that our trucks need or can use... .

 

[rweis]

Sort of like drinking from a fire hydrant turned on full



There are miles of threads all intertwined. I am thinking that I will write my version in a word processor so I can email it or store it somewhere within the TDR servers. You can give me your ph# and I will be happy to spend as much time as necessary to describe it (my company pays for my cell phone unlimited AND the deal is I can use it anyway I want including TDR).



I tried to make a short list of problem fuel related points:



1. Tank canister filter basket and associated tubing to get fuel out of the tank (DrawStraw fixes this)

2. Banjo restrictions and turbulance (Various big line kits good here (min of AN-6 and full flow fittings)

3. 13. 5 psi +- 3 with GOOD volume. Most aftermarket (FASS, RASP, Walbro, AIRDOG etc) lp's do this (proper feeding of VP44)

4. Return line from engine T to frame (1/8" id nylon, serious return flow problem) More AN-6 or 8 here. Remember this IS the return COOLING fuel.

5. Cool return fuel (Deralie, many others make fuel frame coolers for gassers)

6. Dump the return fuel somewhere else but right back where the hot fuel gets picked up going back to the VP44 (tank filler or vent line good substitutes)

7. Fuel level sender (replace it every 30,000 - 50,000 miles OR change it to mechanical sender) rheostat problem

8. Fuel level float (epoxy it, KREAM it, coat it with something fuel proof OR change it to a poly float) it deterroiates and fouls the fuel system filters

9. Flood the VP44 as much OAT as you can to keep the VP44 body cooler and keep the engine block heat off it (shield it, flood it with OAT AND Gary has a kit timer he modified that will do this AFTER THE ENGINE is shutdown. We found the block does not get to a reasonable temp for 90 minutes after shutdown)



There are threads about most of the numbered items. The fuel system is such a poor design, you have to basically totally rebuild it beginning to end.



Cooling the VP44 just because it is so untimely where it dies and the $$. Longevity (maybe).



Your in tank lp: read threads on that. Not too many members inthralled with the DC "fix".



LOTS of reading, cogatating to do



OH, Gary's FRANTZ of / ff, Probably close to the absolute exact of / ff. Takes some somewhat frequent maintenance. Kind of unusual concept. Others filter probably pretty well, but you can actually SEE the particles in his. Each like the one they picked for different reasons and of course he likes his as well.



Bob Weis

 

[Crazy Horse]

Outside air temperature definitely has something to do with the fuel flow. Since last Aug-Sept I've had a fuel guage in the truck and running the Walbro it's constantly read between 15-18 under all circumstances. Recently the guage has fluxuated some (between 12-15) on occation and dropped near 12psi. This has only occured over the last few weeks a couple of times when the outside temps have been somewhere between upper 90's and 125 (in the sun). It also only seems to happen when the truck sits in the sun 4-5 hours. It doesn't happen when driving or on a hot restart.



I'm going to change the fuel filters (factory & 24 micron pre-filter) next week end to see what that does. The filters have been in a little over 10,000 miles. I don't think restriction is showing the recent change in guage readings. I think it's the fuel viscosity changing (thinning) with the hot temps.

Just a follow up on the filter change not from prior post. Yesterday it got into the mid 90's and the fuel pressure dropped to 12 psi on a restart after the truck sat on asphalt for approx 5 hours. This is the 1st time the OAT has got up that high since the filters were changed last weekend. The fuel does thin in hot weather.



If the oil companies can thin diesel fuel out for winter use they sure as heck sould give us some good fuel for summer time use to prevent mechanical failures.

 

[rweis]

And therefore when you setup your lp (RASP, FASS, AirDog etc etc etc) you need to have about 1 - 2 psi higher (14. 4 psi - 15. 5 psi) than what you want to see when the OAT is up toward 100* because when the fuel then thins out (and you lose 1 - 2 psi) you will be right where you want to be 13. 5 psi (test stand calibration psi).



Bob Weis

 

[Crazy Horse]

My Walbro has been running at 15-18 since last August a year ago (idle @ 17+; throttle down to 15).



On these hot days we've had it can drop to a hair under 12 on throttle, 14-15 @ idle.



The photo is normal idle psi when we don't have the 95 + temps.

 

[RJWEST]

My relocated campain LP died at 102 degrees , ( 20K miles )
Intermettent periods of 5-7 psi. drop close to zero under hard pull.

Replaced with Holly blue