i want to learn to weld...

[Coalsmoke]

Greg is right about the cold saws, they are good but are more expensive and are better suited to a production environment.

TH, Ellis makes nice band saws too, I pretty well consider Jet bottom of the line. Portable band saws are hand held units, no table needed. they have their own purpose like most every tool in a fab shop.

As for auto dark helmets, the good quality reputable ones all provide 100% of their UV and IR protection regardless of their shade setting and whether or not they are turned on, it is a safety feature that cannot be defeated without actually removing the lens pack. With reaction times of 1/20,000 of a second, it will not add up to a measurable amount where your eyes will feel irritated, and, keep in mind, full arc ray protection is in place regardless of the light or dark state of the lens. On my higher quality hoods, the changeover from light to dark is so fast that the brain cannot even perceive the 1/20,000 of a second where theoretically the arc light being seen is brighter. Also, keep in mind that these hoods have from shade 3-5 in their light stage, so once again the 1/20,000 of a second is mitigated further.

 

[GHarman]

Porta Band VS Hydraulic feed saw

THenningsen, You can cut very close tolerances with a portaband. You just have to make a fine line to follow (not soapstone). A Jet Hydraulic saw would work just fine. It does eliminate holding the saw and operating it by hand. You could go either way. You should have a couple of material stands that are adjustable for height. They would be necessary for either setup. The Diameter of tube/pipe is limited by the portable bandsaw to 4 1/8" O. D. on a square cut, if I recall. A portaband cuts DRY! If you use cutting fluids on a portable saw, the blade slips on the drive tires and they swell, causing lots of ##%$#%&^(*&), issues:-laf. GregH

 

[Coalsmoke]

If you use cutting fluids on a portable saw, the blade slips on the drive tires and they swell, causing lots of ##%$#%&^(*&), issues:-laf. GregH

This wouldn't be experience talking here now would it:-laf:-laf:-laf

 

[GHarman]

WHO, MOI? EEEMMMMMM, "Boy, I couldn't Live like that":-lafOo. GregH

 

[DJW]

If one is serious doing metal work I prefer the metal band saws,with 10 inch jaw opening, with the soluble oil, (water mixed oil becomes white in color), avoid the small ones, as in general owing to the small diameters of the drive and return wheels causing too much flex the blades break too often. I have had good luck with the Jet type, now made in china I suppose. Never had to readjust them when set, and could go on working when they ran, in all bought 3, my son now has the first two, one gravity feed the other hyd. controlled gravity. I've cut many lifts of sch. 40 steel pipe, 1, 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 inch, sometimes up to 24 in the vise at one time, found my steel supplier could cut them far cheaper than I, so gave them a cutting list. Employed, I had always been under tooled, even when making high Union Wages construction etc. , so I won't go short at home. Good tools are the cheapest things one can buy, after all isn't your labor worth the effort? There are many good new American makers of machine tools at a very reasonable cost, the old line American companies are living in the past, poor design, too high priced. Set tools at your comfortable height and adapt them to your needs, (after all they are yours). Put a tape measure on each tool (I need to).

 

[GHarman]

DJW, I agree partly with you. Serious cutting and fitting of tube at compound angles is greatly aided by a portable bandsaw. Very tight tolerances can be maintained by a competent fitter with no cleanup after a torch cut. I have used a Portable Bandsaw in the fabrication of many, one of a kind jobs. A larger saw can be used with great precision also, but the setup time is the great detractor. For multiple cuts, lifts of similar materials, the hydraulic, gravity feed saws work well. For precision, one of a kind, one at a time fabrication, I will always prefer the portable band saw. They both have their place. I can layout the cut on my work and begin cutting while the saw operator is still setting the first angle on the backing plate. A hydraulic saw is not setup for notching, As an example; a "fishmouth" on a 2"X4" rectangular tube that fits a 4"X4" square tube at a 45* angle, 90* from the axis of the square tube. That is one fitup. Say you are building a box out of tubes that require a finished product to be Plus/Minus 1/16"L. W. H. after welding. There is no room for stacking tolerances. Yes the tape is used judiciously. Measure twice, cut once! Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. GregH

 

[DJW]

GHarman, yes each job dictates the amount of tolerances that can be encountered. , I've used a portable band saw in the field and where it was not practical to use a stationary saw, but I only used as a last resort. Yes what you described with compound angles does pretty much need a keen eye and a controlled hand, if one had enough of that work arc-fit would be a good tool source, I checked on their line very fine engineering and design. For my work not enough to warrant the expense other than a 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 inch pipe notcher. Some years ago I was set on buying a cold cut saw wet cut precision, and the salesman sent me to a machine shop to see one he had sold, and the owner was so pleased with it, he was open to demonstrate his. When he asked what I wanted to use it for he offered to do all my sawing for $20 per hour that was years ago of course. Strangely enough I decided to change the design and did not need the parts. Another time I bought an engine lift to remove a heavy production weldment, after using it three times found a simple way to remove it and quicker. If I buy a tool and find it surplus to my need, I am glad that buying that tool helped me to reassess my method. All tools have their place, with mid steel one can do wonders with just a torch, hand grinder and welder, a good foundation for all. I advocate if possible one cut for two parts. Keep on like this I may start to find something to make again.

 

[GHarman]

Quote; DJW, Keep on like this I may start to find something to make again. Quote



Yep, Thats the way I see it:-laf. I got a few welding projects to do in the shop. My wife dont see it that way:{. But I will get to them eventually. I have an air distribution manifold to build for the shop and the house ( different uses). Hopefully, the intake air upgrade to my truck? An aluminum fixture for my mill. All small stuff that I can handle. Unless I have a helper or two, I dont tackle heavy stuff anymore. GregH

 

[DJW]

GHarman, thinking back a few years ago, in a fab. shop was making a number of grids, forgot the proper name for it, it's placed in a water course at an angle to catch debris, tree trunks, branches and a lot of heavy stuff to preventing clogging further down stream. It consists of heavy bars of steel placed edgewise about 4 inches apart (like a strong-back) and connected with heavy cross members. Forgot actual measurements but at a guess, say 20x12 feet, could be larger as they were running lengths. The spects. of dimensional tolerance of 1/16 of an inch diagonal measurement. (on that big ugly thing?) The shop owner said of all that welding did I think I could meet those requirements, I replied I could, even if I had to use a hammer. (he was rather doubtful and a little worried). Sure enough a government inspector came over from Sacramento, took out a tape and checked the diagonal dimensions, they were even, that's all he inspected then left. (I thought Hell, I could have done that and saved him the journey. On any job if one takes care of details the outcome is pretty well assured, plodding on especially if in a hurry is sure to be rewarded with unpleasant surprises, and expense.

 

[GHarman]

DJW, I call them a trash strainer. We have them here in Colorado, on the upstream side of a bridge over an irrigation ditch. Probably built of lighter gauge materials. GregH

 

[DValentine]

A tri square, soap stone and a porta band. A guy can cut a lot of material. TH... . I too would like a band saw but you can get by with a porta band and a pipe vise. Oh yeah... . a tape measure and an angle finder are handy.

DJW what union affiliation did you have? Boilermaker shop?

I am a member of Boilermakers Local 11 in Montana.

Dave

 

[DJW]

DValentine, when I worked at a boiler shop in Britain, I belonged to the Transport and General Workers Union. (largest Labor Union at the time in Britain) It was not recognized by the company, Union dues had to be collected off the premises, membership was voluntary. There it would be called an Open Shop, meaning no Labor Union recognized. In the USA I've been a member of the Machinist, Teamsters,Ironworkers and Millwrights. Of American construction trades, seems each Scab on each other in the metal trades. In Britain it's called Demarcation, and very serious if you do another trade's work, your own Union will Fine you, on some jobs almost have to be a lawyer to stay out of trouble, especially in the ship building and repair. Even plumbers are segregated (don't tell anyone I used that word) whether pressure lines, open, drains etc, whether galley, engine room, deck, steel, brass or whatever. Granted these go back to the start of steel hulls, and each trade jealous of existing and new processes. Worked on a Deep Sea Tug, (the one at the top of the news in 1953 or so) owing to flammable material present, no flame, sparks etc. allowed. At the time I was in the Blacksmiths and Forgeworkers Union. The bread oven in the galley had to be worked over, the following was a circus. Each metal trade claimed the job, tinsmiths, boilermakers, plumbers, and a host of others. When they found the flue was 1/2 thick steel, in a very awkward, hot and confined position about 4 inches below the deck head and had to be cold chiseled using a hand hammer, all previous eager arguing read to fight proud tradesmen for some reason vanished, seems free tea was being served in the canteen. The Blacksmith and I had the job to our selves. It was doubled shelled and the stays were bolts, with the threaded nuts on the outside, split all the nuts with a chisel, slow but turned out to be a comfortable job for us. Seems each ship repair company and Unions had slightly different rules, as I had worked in a few, I became an unpaid walking lawyer. The British Labor Unions were very militant, fierce jealousy between trades. When an American company builds an oil refinery or such in Britain, or using British workers overseas there is a no strike clause, wildcat, lay down tools etc. It's all hammered out from the start so each trade signs to obey the contract. The British not quite as bad as the French, (but getting there)

 

[DValentine]

I was working with Chicago Bridge and Iron last winter in a local Montana refinery. The QC told me some stories of working in the UK in the 90's building a large LPG storage facility. He said someone would get mad and the whole job would get shut down. This faction would get mad at that faction... . the guys unloading the equipment on the dock were mad at the guys fitting the pieces. Finally someone with some clout and knowledge of the social structure came on site and got the works running smoothly.

Wow what an education you have. I agree we have problems with union labor here in America. We do have jurisdictional books. A lot has been hammered out previously, but companies favor one craft or another depending on who is running the job. Previously disputed jurisdictional "demarcations" will be downplayed with the tune of " if you guys fight about this the Rats will get it next time. "

I would like to hear more about your experiences PM me if you wish.

Dave

 

[DJW]

DValentine in general for the average British worker, one would have to experience it personally to fully understand the society, and an average American would be throughly bewildered (putting it extremely mildly, and ready for the urgent refuge of the nearest Nut Bin) One case I personally had knowledge of being working close by. There was a large Press for plates pressing out ends of metal railroad cars, plus also many other products. Owing to gauge of plates or sheets. (British 'Sheets' measured in Gauge, 'Plates' measured in Inches 1/8, 3'16 etc on up) A boiler Tube Sheet in USA, a Tube Plate UK) (boy are you getting an education?) (and for free) Ha-Ha. At this press depending on gauge or fraction of inch whether pressed cold, chilled (lightly heated) or heated beyond touch by hand, plus light press, heavy, and one, two or three presses, so in all there was some skill related to the job. It took two men to run it, the Pressman and helper. The company had a new press installed owing to increased production, so they asked the helper if he'd like to run it. He was willing as he had worked for 12 years on the other press with the same pressman. When he took the position the pressman he had worked for for 12 years never spoke or looked at him again, only because his helper was now getting the same rate of pay as he, and was of equal status. This is typical of much of the British workforce. (a Bunch of *******s, in fact many, Double *******s).

 

[DValentine]

That is a heck of a story. I am sure you have more.

 

[DJW]

DValentine, here's another. oxygen bottles in Britain, when I worked there 1954, and seeing the same in later years, of oxygen bottles, the necks were Naked and Unashamed, (yes they could be broken off, and the bottle take off like a rocket depending on amount of contents) meaning there was no facility for attaching a cover over the valve or any protection at all. The valves were screwed in as American but could be only opened with a key, (how's that for Safety?) as American Acy. bottles. When working in ship repairs, the bottles were delivered on a flat bed truck, no sides or rear boards, they were stacked two to three rows high, and would be in two rows, valves facing out. (stick around for the good part). To unload the driver would place one hand on the valve the other against the side of the flat bed, then smartly quickly draw the bottle across his front so that it would fall flat on the ground in one manly tug, just clear of his toes, with great expertise. (concrete, hardtop or whatever) I can still hear those bottles ringing. The whole load would unloaded that way.
When I first worked at an engineering works at age 15, (could leave school and start work at 14 years of age then) (at Sea boys had to be at least 15, because Britain was loosing so many ships and 14 year old boys, so give them another year of life anyway) At that plant a 14 year old had the weekly job of oiling the gantry crane. It was all chain man powered, there was no ladder to reach it so he positioned it next to a climbable column. This task was done during the 1/2 lunch break so he would be alone so to work undisturbed, (very thoughtful). There was no catwalk therefore no handrails on the crane, so at least there was no impediment to easy access to the moving parts, so with that consideration, how much better could it have been for him? frankly all the boys wanted that job, I'd be off the list being too old.

 

[GHarman]

DJW, In 1954 I was just 6 years old!!!!. I thought I was the "Old Timer" here:-laf , Keep 'em coming.

I havent been doing any welding (soldiered some copper "M" water pipe this week). Going to take some pictures of some old weld samples and post them as soon as I get over to the shop. May elicit more discussion? GregH

 

[DJW]

GHarman, When I worked on that job where I found the Lincoln LH 7018 fingernailing so bad, I also remarked that the design of the structure, a tower to support a conveyor, was not designed for welding but a riveted job, and under the circumstances would be condemned, as access to the joints to be welded were too difficult to guarantee a sound weld. Weeks after when the tower had been completed, erected and in service, we went into the office to receive our checks, and sure enough on one of the walls was a print of the original one, a riveted job, and used as a guide, dimensions, materials, struts etc. I told the super if they had an engineer to redesign the connections to welding the job, it would have been much easier and taken half the time. (whoever wants to hear that?). Often it's difficult to break away from accepted practices, case in point, the old pressure water tanks, their seams were lapped over to accommodate the row of single or two staggered rows of rivets. When welding became preferred over rivets the seams were still wrapped, rather than butt joints, I have repaired many lapped then welded joints, but to date never a butt welded joint. The lap guaranteed an eventual rust failure.

 

[DJW]

GHarman, I was born in 1926 and have remained, except for the usual aches and pains at 18 years of age. Here's one that may help others, what I am about to relate is true I give you my word on it. I was working evening shift as the welder, there were hydroclaves and other such vessels. The day foreman also the welder was working on some dies, they were subjected to high heat and pressure, the dies would be subjected to a rapid change in temperature, and suffered cracks. These would be ground out, welded, then finished, but for some reason, although a normal procedure would just not work that evening. They would keep cracking in the usual place. He was anxious to leave and asked me what he was doing wrong. So I watched him try three times with no luck, so I told him to do as they did on submarines for leaks when submerged, he asked what that was I answered Caulk. We took a cold chisel and ground it to calk, he tried it and worked, I would not recommend it but there was no safety concerns involved. On riveted pressure vessels I've seen where rivets could be rotated, say where a doubler had been riveted to the shell, and were recaulked. Pressure vessels were hydrostatically tested to 3 times their normal working pressure.

 

[DValentine]

I spent two months putting plate over lap joins in a penstock on a dam here in Montana. The dam was built in 1904 and the joints were riveted. They were leaking badly. We used 3/4" by 1" flat bar on the lower part of the the lap and 3/8 by 1" bar on the upper plate. We covered the flat bar with 3/8" by 14" wide plate. We fit the pieces with dogs and wedges. Welded with E 6010 and covered with E 7018

I can't imagine bucking rivets. What a job. Those guys earned their money.

DJW, we are all ears. More stories please. What did you mean in the previous story with the cold chisel and caulk?

Dave