Attention: TDR Forum Junkies 
These are lifted from another internet site. There is no gaurantee of validity or accuracy. BUT, they have the ring of truth, especially the one from the Arizona Republic.
Perhaps those of you in Arizona and Colorado can investigate and see just how accurate these are.
<br>
Subject: FIRES: Re: Fires Burning in America - from buckland
Folks,
Here is another *personal report* from the FIRES zone. Pay attention to these personal reports - they seldom make the major media and are not subject to some reporter/editors spin. Many thanks to all who have taken the time to let us know the true story going on.
Jackie Juntti
WGEN -- email address removed --
To: -- email address removed --
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:39:15 -0600
Subject: Fw: Re: Fires Burning in America
From: gary l buckland
Dear Jackie - It is a hobby of mine to "flip over" a lot of government "rocks" and see what crawls out. There is no end to the "plain stupidity" that you can find - with ease.
Your article just points out a "drop in the ocean" as to what you can find on an HOURLY basis. Common sense is not very common - if you don't already know it.
You asked for comments about the Hayman fire that started just west of Woodland Park , CO. I live in Colorado Springs , CO - and own land just a few miles south of where the fire started. The only thing that saved us, this time, was wind direction - but it "ain't" over yet.
A local news paper columnist (Rich Tosches) wrote an article about an absurd incident in which the Hayman fire could have easily been stopped before it could do so much damage.
Let me preface by saying - I have spent 35 years in the heavy equipment business - 25 of which were with the Caterpillar organization. I know equipment !!. Mr. Tosches "article" mentions Caterpillar D 10's. I
can tell you more about a D 10 than you really care to know. A local gold mining company ( one of my ex customers ) offered [ at no cost ] to furnish 2 of these Large crawler dozers in order to stop the Hayman fire
before it became a raging inferno. They were being good neighbors ,in the best of the western tradition, by offering this million dollars worth of equipment - at a significant cost to themselves.
Their offer was refused !!!!!! The official reason - "We wouldn't want to scar the land with a blade that big". The eventual cost of this stupidity was far , far more costly than any D 10 would have caused. These 2 machines could have cleared more fire line in a few hours than it
took 2500 firefighters 2 weeks to clear. This is a pure and simple case of having "Amateurs" in positions of responsibility. Monday morning quarter backing - "NO" - just a matter of common sense. Bone dry conditions - extreme low humidity - wind - and miles and miles of timber
- with no real access or natural barriers.
The gold company was also told that their "dozer operators" were not "CERTIFIED FIREFIGHTERS". The company said "fine - put your own "operators" on the dozers. Their offer was still rejected. The results of all this is there for the
"seeing".
I am the son of a Kansas Pioneer - we fought ( as good neighbors) grass prairie fires long before most of the United States citizenry were even born. We did not need "Certified Firefighters" to come in and "make
judgements" for us. It was just a matter of common sense and cooperation - something that seems to be in short supply with our various government departments - national and local. We did not have D 10's then - but if
we had them you can bet your assets that we would have used them.
From what I have read - there are many of the same type situations that were present at the other large fires in Durango CO, and Show Low, AZ.
What this ALL about is "turf" ---- budgets - incompetent bureaucrats - and self "sustaining bureaucracies" - the old pay check thing.
Should someone be held "criminally liable" - you can literally bet your assets again. 100 years ago - you would have found them "hanging" from a tree - that had not burned yet.
You wanted suggestions - this is mine.
Gary Buckland
<br>
Mogollon Rim residents riled by fire tactics
Mark Shaffer
The Arizona Republic
June 26, 2002 12:00:00
SNOWFLAKE - The U. S. Forest Service's strategy to combat the massive "Rodeo-Chediski" wildfire came under intense criticism Tuesday from Mogollon Rim residents who say firefighters abandoned the community of Pinedale and didn't use heavy equipment and other resources offered by private businesses and Apache County to protect the Heber-Overgaard area.
State and federal officials have said that 17 homes were destroyed in Pinedale and about 250 houses and mobile homes were incinerated in Heber and Overgaard since the fire began last week.
"To my way of thinking, the Forest Service might as well have burned our town down. And we're not going to stop until we get some justice in this matter," said Gerald Brewer, 69, longtime Pinedale resident.
But Bob Dyson, a Forest Service spokesman, said firefighters were following a policy of not having their lives put at risk in front of a huge wildfire.
"We had one engine per home in there at one point foaming down houses," Dyson said. "Then, they went in there and hosed them down afterward. But we weren't going to stay in the middle of the fire and put our guys' lives at risk. "
According to volunteer members of the Pinedale-Clay Springs Fire Department, about 10 of whom ignored evacuation orders and stayed behind last Thursday and Friday to fight the fire, an estimated 100 Forest Service firefighters left town about 12 hours before the blaze swept into the community.
"I saw them all sitting on the road outside of town just watching the place burn," said Jim Hansen, a Pinedale resident and coach at Show Low High School. "At one point, I went over to talk to a section supervisor and said, 'Aren't you even going to try to save our historical covered bridge?' since we had a water spigot near it. They finally went and did that. "
Meanwhile, Hansen said that he and other residents of the area who refused to evacuate, including Show Low Justice of the Peace Kent Brewer, joined groups of firefighters from Mayer, Globe and Tucson to combat the blaze.
Hansen and Pinedale resident Joseph Brewer, who is Kent Brewer's brother and Gerald Brewer's son, both said that law enforcement officials blocked in a Pinedale-Clay Springs firetruck that had parked at a home threatened by fire as the volunteers were spraying foam on the residence.
Joseph Brewer said he and other locals primarily used garden hoses to fight spot fires.
Residents of Heber-Overgaard also find considerable fault with the firefighting tactics, said Sylvia Allen, a resident of the area.
"When all is said and done, there are going to be a number of irate people about what happened here," Allen said.
Allen, a former political activist for ranching and mining causes, said that the two communities had hundreds of potential volunteers to help combat the fire, but there was "no leadership by those directing firefighting efforts. "
"We had all kinds of heavy machinery, some of which was even left on the Rim Road (Forest Service 300)," Allen said. "But there was always some kind of excuse not to use it that they would come up with like 'That's not certified' or 'That piece of equipment isn't registered. ' "
Allen also said that Apache County officials were "incensed" because the firefighting management team would not accept its offers of heavy equipment to battle the blaze. Apache County Manager Clarence Bigelow could not be reached for comment Tuesday.
Dyson said that the Forest Service uses volunteers in many of its jobs, but firefighting is too dangerous. He also said that the agency has an inspection process for machinery and that uninspected machinery is rejected for forest fire use because of the potential of breakdown and putting the lives of drivers in jeopardy.
Perhaps those of you in Arizona and Colorado can investigate and see just how accurate these are.
<br>
Subject: FIRES: Re: Fires Burning in America - from buckland
Folks,
Here is another *personal report* from the FIRES zone. Pay attention to these personal reports - they seldom make the major media and are not subject to some reporter/editors spin. Many thanks to all who have taken the time to let us know the true story going on.
Jackie Juntti
WGEN -- email address removed --
To: -- email address removed --
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:39:15 -0600
Subject: Fw: Re: Fires Burning in America
From: gary l buckland
Dear Jackie - It is a hobby of mine to "flip over" a lot of government "rocks" and see what crawls out. There is no end to the "plain stupidity" that you can find - with ease.
Your article just points out a "drop in the ocean" as to what you can find on an HOURLY basis. Common sense is not very common - if you don't already know it.
You asked for comments about the Hayman fire that started just west of Woodland Park , CO. I live in Colorado Springs , CO - and own land just a few miles south of where the fire started. The only thing that saved us, this time, was wind direction - but it "ain't" over yet.
A local news paper columnist (Rich Tosches) wrote an article about an absurd incident in which the Hayman fire could have easily been stopped before it could do so much damage.
Let me preface by saying - I have spent 35 years in the heavy equipment business - 25 of which were with the Caterpillar organization. I know equipment !!. Mr. Tosches "article" mentions Caterpillar D 10's. I
can tell you more about a D 10 than you really care to know. A local gold mining company ( one of my ex customers ) offered [ at no cost ] to furnish 2 of these Large crawler dozers in order to stop the Hayman fire
before it became a raging inferno. They were being good neighbors ,in the best of the western tradition, by offering this million dollars worth of equipment - at a significant cost to themselves.
Their offer was refused !!!!!! The official reason - "We wouldn't want to scar the land with a blade that big". The eventual cost of this stupidity was far , far more costly than any D 10 would have caused. These 2 machines could have cleared more fire line in a few hours than it
took 2500 firefighters 2 weeks to clear. This is a pure and simple case of having "Amateurs" in positions of responsibility. Monday morning quarter backing - "NO" - just a matter of common sense. Bone dry conditions - extreme low humidity - wind - and miles and miles of timber
- with no real access or natural barriers.
The gold company was also told that their "dozer operators" were not "CERTIFIED FIREFIGHTERS". The company said "fine - put your own "operators" on the dozers. Their offer was still rejected. The results of all this is there for the
"seeing".
I am the son of a Kansas Pioneer - we fought ( as good neighbors) grass prairie fires long before most of the United States citizenry were even born. We did not need "Certified Firefighters" to come in and "make
judgements" for us. It was just a matter of common sense and cooperation - something that seems to be in short supply with our various government departments - national and local. We did not have D 10's then - but if
we had them you can bet your assets that we would have used them.
From what I have read - there are many of the same type situations that were present at the other large fires in Durango CO, and Show Low, AZ.
What this ALL about is "turf" ---- budgets - incompetent bureaucrats - and self "sustaining bureaucracies" - the old pay check thing.
Should someone be held "criminally liable" - you can literally bet your assets again. 100 years ago - you would have found them "hanging" from a tree - that had not burned yet.
You wanted suggestions - this is mine.
Gary Buckland
<br>
Mogollon Rim residents riled by fire tactics
Mark Shaffer
The Arizona Republic
June 26, 2002 12:00:00
SNOWFLAKE - The U. S. Forest Service's strategy to combat the massive "Rodeo-Chediski" wildfire came under intense criticism Tuesday from Mogollon Rim residents who say firefighters abandoned the community of Pinedale and didn't use heavy equipment and other resources offered by private businesses and Apache County to protect the Heber-Overgaard area.
State and federal officials have said that 17 homes were destroyed in Pinedale and about 250 houses and mobile homes were incinerated in Heber and Overgaard since the fire began last week.
"To my way of thinking, the Forest Service might as well have burned our town down. And we're not going to stop until we get some justice in this matter," said Gerald Brewer, 69, longtime Pinedale resident.
But Bob Dyson, a Forest Service spokesman, said firefighters were following a policy of not having their lives put at risk in front of a huge wildfire.
"We had one engine per home in there at one point foaming down houses," Dyson said. "Then, they went in there and hosed them down afterward. But we weren't going to stay in the middle of the fire and put our guys' lives at risk. "
According to volunteer members of the Pinedale-Clay Springs Fire Department, about 10 of whom ignored evacuation orders and stayed behind last Thursday and Friday to fight the fire, an estimated 100 Forest Service firefighters left town about 12 hours before the blaze swept into the community.
"I saw them all sitting on the road outside of town just watching the place burn," said Jim Hansen, a Pinedale resident and coach at Show Low High School. "At one point, I went over to talk to a section supervisor and said, 'Aren't you even going to try to save our historical covered bridge?' since we had a water spigot near it. They finally went and did that. "
Meanwhile, Hansen said that he and other residents of the area who refused to evacuate, including Show Low Justice of the Peace Kent Brewer, joined groups of firefighters from Mayer, Globe and Tucson to combat the blaze.
Hansen and Pinedale resident Joseph Brewer, who is Kent Brewer's brother and Gerald Brewer's son, both said that law enforcement officials blocked in a Pinedale-Clay Springs firetruck that had parked at a home threatened by fire as the volunteers were spraying foam on the residence.
Joseph Brewer said he and other locals primarily used garden hoses to fight spot fires.
Residents of Heber-Overgaard also find considerable fault with the firefighting tactics, said Sylvia Allen, a resident of the area.
"When all is said and done, there are going to be a number of irate people about what happened here," Allen said.
Allen, a former political activist for ranching and mining causes, said that the two communities had hundreds of potential volunteers to help combat the fire, but there was "no leadership by those directing firefighting efforts. "
"We had all kinds of heavy machinery, some of which was even left on the Rim Road (Forest Service 300)," Allen said. "But there was always some kind of excuse not to use it that they would come up with like 'That's not certified' or 'That piece of equipment isn't registered. ' "
Allen also said that Apache County officials were "incensed" because the firefighting management team would not accept its offers of heavy equipment to battle the blaze. Apache County Manager Clarence Bigelow could not be reached for comment Tuesday.
Dyson said that the Forest Service uses volunteers in many of its jobs, but firefighting is too dangerous. He also said that the agency has an inspection process for machinery and that uninspected machinery is rejected for forest fire use because of the potential of breakdown and putting the lives of drivers in jeopardy.
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