Improving Tow Capabuilty

[Grizzly]

MChrist, You asked for a straight answer, I'll give you a straight answer, Get a heavier rated truck, like a 3500 DRW. We buy our trucks to haul our 24' TT and all is well with the world. Then mama says, "we need a bigger camper. Let's get a 38' 5th wheel with 4 slide outs". And you think your 2500 short bed with added air bags can handle it? Guess again.



You want a bigger camper, get a bigger truck.



The so called weight police is only going to look at one thing if he stops you, which is your truck registration. He'll put that in his computer and computer will tell him what your truck is capable of towing. He's not going to care what mods you did to your truck or how many pounds of air you have in the airbags.



george

 

[AH64ID]

You also need to look at what your state laws are. In Idaho if I register for 26K GCWR (which I do) and don't exceed any GAWR or tire ratings I am fine.

 

[Mark31]

DRider, I drooled over an Arctic Fox 27-5L pretty bad a couple of years ago. After many hours of looking, calculating, guesstimating, and listening to others, I decided this would be at the limits of my truck. It didn't work out for us to get it. I do however have a 23 ft gn flatbed that with my Ford NH 5030, loader, grapple, and rear blade, I weigh about 23600. Outside of a trip to Columbia, Miss, after Katrina (with our Baptist Disaster Relief unit), I don't stray too far from home. I did get in an area a couple of years ago that I had to stop,start on some bad hills, and I believe that is one reason why my transmission is "giving me notice". I went to Palmer, Wasila, Chickaloon, Sutton, Glacier View, in 07 pulling a Woodmizer sawmill (4000 lbs? I've forgotten). I think you know that your biggest concern there is going to be slowing, stopping and our 04 transmissions won't handle an exhaust brake. I'd get a premium after market trans (that will handle the brake) and torque converter, exhaust brake, air bags, Maxbrake, and see how far under 20,000 (the VERY max) you can stay. A front wheel free spin kit would be nice, too. My 305 engine isn't the strongest thing in the world, but I know its limts and am comfortable with them. Boy, I'm good at spending other people's money! I'd make a good pollytishun! Mark

 

[MChrist]

Arrgh! I just watched the Bears get their butts kicked!

Grizzly: I'm fully aware that my twin turbos and air springs don't LEGALLY increase my GVWR. What I thought I made clear is that a 2500 with air springs will handle a large trailer as well as an "equally configured 3500" (quad cab, short bed) since the only difference is the rear spring. The air springs can actually give more support than the extra spring that a 3500 has.

And as I said above before... if this was primarily my work truck, and I had to tow a lot more than I do, I would have probably gone for a dually.



In my previous post this was quite clear.



ANYWAY... ... . I thought the reason we are on this forum is to try to help the Original Poster with his question. Telling ME that I should have bought a bigger truck because "Mama" might want a bigger trailer someday in the future is really quite silly. The OP wants to "Improve his towing capability". Let's try to focus on that, shall we??

 

[Wiredawg]

All,



NEVER trust RV dealers! I'm probably the prime example of the subject of this thread... I own a triple slide triple axle 37' Travel Supreme 5th wheel. It weighs 17K lbs loaded for travel. I owned a 2000 Ram 2500 QC 4x4 long bed 6spd w/ 3. 54s. I knew nothing about GVWR or GCVWR and trusted my RV dealer. He even tried to talk us into a used Newmar the weighed even more, but owner had been a smoker. Thank God for smokers in this case.



MY UPGRADED 2500: I added airbags and upgraded to Helwig HD rear anti-sway bar. I even bragged on the TDR I had built my truck for equal capability as a 3500. A good friend of mine had an '01 3500 and I began to rethink my claims, especially being right at the limit of the tires. I considered converting it to a dually, 19. 5" tires. But I reconciled it was still a 2500. I traded for a 3500 that I still own, opting to still be underated for the load vice buying a Ford F450.



MY REVELATION: Now the real eye opener: While I was stripping accessories for trading I found both upper-rear air bag bracket bolts had sheared in half, but was held in place by tension. I realized it was a train wreck waiting to happen. All they had to do is fail in a curve and I'm sure I would have been in a loss of control situation. I believe my intuition paid off.



RIGHT SIZING: Further to promote the discussion of right sizing the truck for the load, I bought a 2009 4500 that is the best solution to be close to legal. It is rated for 26K Lbs GCVWR and I weigh 28,300 Lbs. I just don't want a Freightliner. My 4500 is a daily driver.



So, you've heard all the pertinent information and received advice. Good luck deciding, and please let us know what you decide. I promise you won't hear any criticism from me.



Happy (and safe) Trails



Wiredawg

 

[Bob Cochran]

I could never in good conscience give somebody advice that would make them illegal.

Sure you could do all the stuff above but in reality if you cannot get it re-certified by manufacturer or a licensed certified Mechanical Engineer it will be illegal.

Me driving conservative or the OP is a fantastic idea. Problem is while I can control myself it is very hard to control everybody else; drive slower, not sharp evasive turns or swerves, no panic stops. Even if I have been lucky enough to avoid other crazy's on the road I would not recommend this to others. For myself this is the reason I have the 3500 dually with which I added an exhaust break and upgraded power, etc.

So bottom line my own personal responsibility will not allow me to recommend someone do stuff that would in the end make them illegal. Even if I did it myself I would never tell someone else to do the same thing. I worry not only about myself, those riding with me, and others on the road.

I am within all ratings with my 3500 and still I am going to be upgrading to a Freightliner, Volvo or Pete modified for towing my 5er. This change is not for everyone by a long shot but I will feel better and know I will be safer. In this State to do a HDT conversion including that I have to get my CDL Class A license(just the skill test to go) should tell anyone you have to be serious to take on this adventure. Just so you know the HDT market for good low mileage trucks is a lot less than and new MDT or even most LDT's. More than likely it will have a Cummin's engine though cannot go to far away. LOL

Anyways to the OP good luck and everything will probably be fine if you are comfortable with what your doing.

 

[DRyder]

Outstanding info, thanks for all the advice and furthering my education. I just finished paying this puppy off so I am in no rush to go and sign for another note; and it runs well. Again, thanks!



Dave

 

[Road Dog]

A couple of comments:

Up here a licensed truck builder can increase the GVWR of a truck but they normally deal with heavy duty trucks and have professional engineers to sign off on changes. It would be expensive for a light duty truck (i. e. 1T and less).

For towing the weak link is the 48RE transmission.

 

[Grizzly]

All,



NEVER trust RV dealers! I'm probably the prime example of the subject of this thread... I own a triple slide triple axle 37' Travel Supreme 5th wheel. It weighs 17K lbs loaded for travel. I owned a 2000 Ram 2500 QC 4x4 long bed 6spd w/ 3. 54s. I knew nothing about GVWR or GCVWR and trusted my RV dealer. He even tried to talk us into a used Newmar the weighed even more, but owner had been a smoker. Thank God for smokers in this case.



MY UPGRADED 2500: I added airbags and upgraded to Helwig HD rear anti-sway bar. I even bragged on the TDR I had built my truck for equal capability as a 3500. A good friend of mine had an '01 3500 and I began to rethink my claims, especially being right at the limit of the tires. I considered converting it to a dually, 19. 5" tires. But I reconciled it was still a 2500. I traded for a 3500 that I still own, opting to still be underated for the load vice buying a Ford F450.



MY REVELATION: Now the real eye opener: While I was stripping accessories for trading I found both upper-rear air bag bracket bolts had sheared in half, but was held in place by tension. I realized it was a train wreck waiting to happen. All they had to do is fail in a curve and I'm sure I would have been in a loss of control situation. I believe my intuition paid off.



RIGHT SIZING: Further to promote the discussion of right sizing the truck for the load, I bought a 2009 4500 that is the best solution to be close to legal. It is rated for 26K Lbs GCVWR and I weigh 28,300 Lbs. I just don't want a Freightliner. My 4500 is a daily driver.



So, you've heard all the pertinent information and received advice. Good luck deciding, and please let us know what you decide. I promise you won't hear any criticism from me.



Happy (and safe) Trails



Wiredawg

MChrist,



This is an excellent example of what I was trying to convey to you by upgrading to bigger heavier trailer, then you find yourself with a truck that's under rated to do the task.



Just keep your socks on, I'm not trying to ruffle your feathers. My intent was to provide help to you and the OP. I wouldn't want to see anyone making a big mistake.



george

 

[AH64ID]

Another thing to consider is how low the acutal payload on a 2500 is legally. If you ever see a Diesel 2500 with anything decent loaded in the bed it will most likely be over GVWR. The way my truck sits right now its 8K lbs without me in it. So 3 buddies and a couple of rifles and a few clothes bag would be "illegal" on a 2500. That doesn't include tounge weight, or really anything much to hit 9K GVW. So if you want to live by the letter of the law a 2500 is really a useless truck. The GVW of a SRW in 05 was 9,900; which is a little harder to top without a trailer, but a bed full of hunting gear a couple elk, etc and its pretty easy. GAWR aren't exceeded, but GVWR is.



Which is why I interpolate the parts to determine the weight I can safely opearate at and not exceed any structural limits. If I am below GAWR and tires I am not worried in the least about GWVR, or GCWR.

 

[MChrist]

I, too was the victim of a big mistake. We made our Travel Trailer purchase based on what our previous truck ('96 Tahoe) was rated to tow. With the towing package and 3. 73 gears, it was rated at around 7,000 lbs. The same size/style in non "Feather Lite" dress was around 8500lbs. So we spent about $2000 more to get the Feather Lite Jayco in the size we wanted (30') while not exceeding the magic towing capacity number.
Pulling out of the dealership I knew this wasn't doing to work. I've never had such an awful experience towing in my life. They then installed a Reese dual cam anti-sway hitch at another $1000. A little better, but nothing I wanted to tow more than a mile or two.

So I do understand having the right AND wrong truck for the job. But since the OP already has the truck, I'm letting him know his options. He has a long wheelbase 2500 that's only rated at somewhere around 9,000# towing capacity. He has two options, like I said: tow below Dodge's "recommended" number or tow above it. Oddly, my '06 quad cab SHORT bed is rated at around 13,500#.
I'm not RECOMMENDING he breaks whatever weight law may apply to him. However, if I owned his truck and owned his trailer, I would just try to optimize what I already owned.
I'm NOT going to tell somebody that they need to sell their vehicle and get a dually that is roughly 18" wider and rides much harder on the off chance "mama" wants a bigger camper. Nor would I recommend towing a 17,000 trailer with that truck. At that point if I had to recommend anything, it would be to get either a 3500 dually or a 4500.
Driving around in a dually when you don't need a dually 99. 98% of the time sucks! I've done it, so I know. Much better feeling while towing, though. So you have to decide for yourself.

 

[MelvinPierce]

Another thing to consider is how low the acutal payload on a 2500 is legally. If you ever see a Diesel 2500 with anything decent loaded in the bed it will most likely be over GVWR. The way my truck sits right now its 8K lbs without me in it. So 3 buddies and a couple of rifles and a few clothes bag would be "illegal" on a 2500. That doesn't include tounge weight, or really anything much to hit 9K GVW. So if you want to live by the letter of the law a 2500 is really a useless truck. The GVW of a SRW in 05 was 9,900; which is a little harder to top without a trailer, but a bed full of hunting gear a couple elk, etc and its pretty easy. GAWR aren't exceeded, but GVWR is.

Which is why I interpolate the parts to determine the weight I can safely opearate at and not exceed any structural limits. If I am below GAWR and tires I am not worried in the least about GWVR, or GCWR.

I am with you. If within axle weight limit, I am OK with it.

Now, you need to drive carefully.

I understand a bigger truck will handle it better. I own a trucking company, so am well aware of weights!

License it for the weight you will be at, and should have no problem with the weight police.

To carry the argument to a silly conclusion, maybe we should all pull 12. 000# trailers with semi trucks, because the truck will handle it better!

And, that is true.

MP

 

[Grizzly]

I, too was the victim of a big mistake. We made our Travel Trailer purchase based on what our previous truck ('96 Tahoe) was rated to tow. With the towing package and 3. 73 gears, it was rated at around 7,000 lbs. The same size/style in non "Feather Lite" dress was around 8500lbs. So we spent about $2000 more to get the Feather Lite Jayco in the size we wanted (30') while not exceeding the magic towing capacity number.

Pulling out of the dealership I knew this wasn't doing to work. I've never had such an awful experience towing in my life. They then installed a Reese dual cam anti-sway hitch at another $1000. A little better, but nothing I wanted to tow more than a mile or two.



So I do understand having the right AND wrong truck for the job. But since the OP already has the truck, I'm letting him know his options. He has a long wheelbase 2500 that's only rated at somewhere around 9,000# towing capacity. He has two options, like I said: tow below Dodge's "recommended" number or tow above it. Oddly, my '06 quad cab SHORT bed is rated at around 13,500#.

I'm not RECOMMENDING he breaks whatever weight law may apply to him. However, if I owned his truck and owned his trailer, I would just try to optimize what I already owned.

I'm NOT going to tell somebody that they need to sell their vehicle and get a dually that is roughly 18" wider and rides much harder on the off chance "mama" wants a bigger camper. Nor would I recommend towing a 17,000 trailer with that truck. At that point if I had to recommend anything, it would be to get either a 3500 dually or a 4500.

Driving around in a dually when you don't need a dually 99. 98% of the time sucks! I've done it, so I know. Much better feeling while towing, though. So you have to decide for yourself.

I believe we really understand each other as far as what we can do and not do with whatever truck we own. The point is that you can upgrade a 2500 to tow what a 3500 can do, but you can't modify the registration.



As far as it being difficult to drive a 3500 dually as a daily driver, I don't agree. I've been driving one for 16 years and I can go anywhere a 2500 can go except a drive-up window at McDonald's or a drive-up teller window. Since I don't go to McDonald's, it's not a problem. I can park it in my garage and can go into any parking structure that has a 7' limit height bar. I can park in any slot at HomeDepot if I want, but since I don't like people slamming their doors on it I park in the lower 40 and walk. I feel as comfortable driving it anywhere as I do my wife's car.



george

 

[CUMMINZ]

If the issue is simply upgrading the truck to handle greater load, changing out or simply adding leaves to the rear springs along with changing wheels and tires to 19. 5" with greater load carrying capacity would do it.



If the issue is altering what the manufacturer certified it for, only the manufacturer can recertify it. We all know "that ain't gonna happen. "



It's the "they" in "they could then re-certify" where your theory runs off the tracks.



A letter to your state's department of public safety, department of motor vehicles or whatever the equivalent is in your state inquiring if you can have your truck recertified to carry more weight should clarify the issue. I'd bet the answer is contained in state laws governing registration and operation of motor vehicles in your state.



When you say, "it is my understanding" what is the source of that information?



I really don't think it can be done.



The entire world is full of mis-information, misunderstandings, false statements, and wrong beliefs. Lots of it is related to our beloved diesel powered light trucks. Wonder how many dummies still believe that "Furd owns Cummings?"[/QUOTE]



Smarten up HB you know that "Cummins" is spelled "CumminZ".

 

[MChrist]

Well, I spent most of the day working on this, because I don't like not having an answer to a seemingly simple question. Spent an hour or two online and only found more people asking the same question, along with even more people giving opposing advice. So I started calling the Secretary of State for Illinois. After getting transferred to no less than SEVEN different departments, I finally got on the phone with a State Trooper. GUESS WHAT???? He didn't know, either. So he told me that it "probably could be done, but didn't know if it was worth it. "
I posed a theoretical situation to the Trooper. I asked him what I could do to raise the GVWR on my truck, as an example. He said either air springs or an extra leaf like the 3500s. I said "fine, now what would happen if I was over my GVWR and got pulled over for it?". He beat around the bush a little, then said " That's pretty unlikely, but once the trooper sees you have beefed up the truck and you aren't over by too much, he would probably let you go. "
So, while that is the least committed answer I've heard in a long time, it may shed a glimmer of light on the situation. I believe it boils down to IF you get pulled over and WHO pulls you over. And maybe what kind of day that person is having, too.

 

[RVTRKN]

Ya, thats the ticket (no pun intended) if towing for recreation then you should be fine but I wouldn't do it, if its for commercial. If you look level and are driving in a proper manner I don't think you will have a problem. But you have to keep in mind the rating you have to pay attention too, is the steer and drive axle ratings with tires that meet or go over that rating. You see it all the time here in SoCal with toy haulers heading to the Dunes. They are so over weight that the front end is pitched up and the rear is squatted, and the CHP's just drive on by. But there is always the one trooper that seems to give tickets. :-laf



As far as getting the truck recertified for the heavier weight, thats not going to happen.

 

[HBarlow]

Well, I spent most of the day working on this, because I don't like not having an answer to a seemingly simple question. Spent an hour or two online and only found more people asking the same question, along with even more people giving opposing advice. So I started calling the Secretary of State for Illinois. After getting transferred to no less than SEVEN different departments, I finally got on the phone with a State Trooper. GUESS WHAT???? He didn't know, either. So he told me that it "probably could be done, but didn't know if it was worth it. "
I posed a theoretical situation to the Trooper. I asked him what I could do to raise the GVWR on my truck, as an example. He said either air springs or an extra leaf like the 3500s. I said "fine, now what would happen if I was over my GVWR and got pulled over for it?". He beat around the bush a little, then said " That's pretty unlikely, but once the trooper sees you have beefed up the truck and you aren't over by too much, he would probably let you go. "
So, while that is the least committed answer I've heard in a long time, it may shed a glimmer of light on the situation. I believe it boils down to IF you get pulled over and WHO pulls you over. And maybe what kind of day that person is having, too.

You were most likely speaking with an ordinary patrol trooper, not one who specialized in commercial enforcement. If he provided the answers you quoted he was clueless.

I don't know for sure about your state but most states have a separate group within the state police who are specially trained and work commercial vehicle enforcement. They are responsible for oversight of OTR trucking, perform truck inspections, and operate or oversee the scales. Commercial vehicle enforcement troopers are the ones you should be asking.

The fact that nobody can tell you how to recertify your truck for increased weight carrying is a pretty good hint that it can't be done.

 

[AClayton]

I am way over-weight with my truck but the axle ratings are right on the line. My truck grosses at just over 22k with my toys loaded. My truck only requires 35psi in the airbags to level the truck. I have a 2nd gen and the springs are a little harsher than the 3rd gens so that may be the reason for not needing a lot of air. As long as I pump the air up to max inflation in my tires, I am legal. My tires at 80psi will handle 3990lbs per tire. The auto in my truck was responsible for my lower GCWR while the 6spd's came with 22k.



Btw... ... ... . My rig is 40' long and no DOT nor County or even State Police has ever even taken a second glance at me driving down the Interstate. I have pulled my RV just over 10k miles since April when I bought it with no problems thus far, BUT... ... ... my truck is specifically modded to pull heavy.

 

[JMDancoe]

After 30 plus years in trucking (before retirement) I find the answer to this is very simple.
Spec your tow vehicle (truck) to handle the towed vehicle (trailer).
As big as some "Travel Trailers" are getting they are no longer really "Travel Trailers", but Mobile Homes. If you really need something that big, and I submit, that some do, then buy a vehicle spec'd to haul it.

 

[RVTRKN]

I am way over-weight with my truck but the axle ratings are right on the line. My truck grosses at just over 22k with my toys loaded. My truck only requires 35psi in the airbags to level the truck. I have a 2nd gen and the springs are a little harsher than the 3rd gens so that may be the reason for not needing a lot of air. As long as I pump the air up to max inflation in my tires, I am legal. My tires at 80psi will handle 3990lbs per tire. The auto in my truck was responsible for my lower GCWR while the 6spd's came with 22k.



Btw... ... ... . My rig is 40' long and no DOT nor County or even State Police has ever even taken a second glance at me driving down the Interstate. I have pulled my RV just over 10k miles since April when I bought it with no problems thus far, BUT... ... ... my truck is specifically modded to pull heavy.

If you are within the axle ratings and your tires are at or over the ratings then your legal.