In Line fuel filter - Good Idea?

[DBentley]

I'm glad i didnt rush into the 10mic and 2 mic chassis mounted filters now.
I get the feeling it will cause more harm than good than if i just leave it alone with the 5 mic baldwin in the stock location?
Its a cheap project less than 100. 00 but.
My worries are:
Freezing (waxing).
Early pump failure.
Not enough fuel to cp3 from restrictions.

 

[AH64ID]

Let’s look at the in tank Pump Closer.



1. The pump Tank module and engine mounted tank both give NO warning of immediate failure.



2. The In tank pump is next’s to impossible to replace anywhere outside of a shop with a lift. (sure it can be Done in some parking lot with jacks, but the level of danger is just not worth it, Not considering the weather)

The Engine mounted Pump can be replaced on the side of the road in less than 30 minutes.

3. The in tank will require a tow.

4. It’s very hard to carry the module as a spare, The engine mounted can be put under, behind seat, just about anywhere in the cab.

5. Tools for the engine mounted are common and get be left in the door pockets, 2 special tools are required to remove the module.

6. Cost the module $289. 00, Engine mounted Pump $180. 00

7. In tank Pumps last about 6/8 Years and 160/190k miles, We replace 100s of in tank pumps in all makes and models. The engine mount Pump last from 60/120K we seen them go as long as 180k. My 03 went 106k.

8. If you install the T&C Dual Mount Bracket (1. 5hrs install) and the In cab switch you have the option of running 1or2 Pumps simultaneously . If one Pump fails you just replace it at your convince, You will NEVER be stranded again. The in tank pump when its fails it is almost impossible to pull through it. Leaving you stranded (You knows where).



9. The in tank generally last longer, But NO Thanks to the rest of the story.

In tanks are actually designed as a flow thru design if they fail. So unless they have an odd failure you should be able to suck thru the pump and get somewhere to get it fixed.



Personally I'll take the increased cost for the increased reliability, these pumps aren't great suction pumps and its a long ways to suck to the pump.

I'm glad i didnt rush into the 10mic and 2 mic chassis mounted filters now.

I get the feeling it will cause more harm than good than if i just leave it alone with the 5 mic baldwin in the stock location?

Its a cheap project less than 100. 00 but.

My worries are:

Freezing (waxing).

Early pump failure.

Not enough fuel to cp3 from restrictions.

I have 3 filters on my truck, and I have absolutely no problems with it. My pressures are good, and the only fear from waxing is unwinterized fuel. If they fuel is good then it won't wax. But like I said, I would never consider this setup on an engine mounted pump.



When my in tank goes I will go with a Raptor and a liberty canister.

 

[TCDiesel]

I have 3 filters on my truck, and I have absolutely no problems with it. My pressures are good, and the only fear from waxing is unwinterized fuel. If they fuel is good then it won't wax. But like I said, I would never consider this setup on an engine mounted pump.



What would you consider Good Pressure?, Are those 3 filter dropping pressure considerably if not what would be your explanation(s) they are not? In My 30 Years of dealing with filtration I have always seen significant drop In Pressure when Using High grade Media (Pre/Post Filter(s) . Volume will usually accompany (Reduction) Quality Filtration also.

 

[AH64ID]

What would you consider Good Pressure?, Are those 3 filter dropping pressure considerably if not what would be your explanation(s) they are not? In My 30 Years of dealing with filtration I have always seen significant drop In Pressure when Using High grade Media (Pre/Post Filter(s) . Volume will usually accompany (Reduction) Quality Filtration also.

I have 9 at idle (normal for a single filter truck), 7-8 cruising and no lower than 5 WOT. CP3's don't need pressure just flow. Anything positive is enough. Now that I have almost 30K miles on these filters I can get the psi to drop to 4. 5 in 3rd and 4th gear, but it holds at least 5 in 5th and 6th. My psi gauge is post filters.

All 3 filters I run are rated for more flow than the in-tank is capable of (at least what speculation deems it capable of). I did plenty of research to determine what filters I wanted to run. One of the reasons I went with my own setup is none of the filters on the AD are rated for the flow of the pump, and the f/w sep on the FASS isn't rated for it either.

Newer filters flow more and filter better than filters ever have. The synthetic media offered today is leaps and bounds above filters of even 10 years ago.

The design of the in-tank bypasses a lot of fuel back to the tank when the pressure is up, so as the pressure gets below 8psi the bypass closes and more fuel is made available to the engine.

I also have upgraded all of my OE banjo's with either hi-flow banjo's or -an fittings, reducing the restriction. I know that given the same flow this indicates a pressure drop, but as I have pointed out the CP3 needs flow not pressure.

Richard at GDP did a great writeup on the in-tank pump. Located here

 

[TCDiesel]

What you mean by flow is Volume correct? Yep. . Don't believe the ratings, the True test of filtration is pressure Pre and Post filters, You should always see a significant drop after filtering. NO drop minimal filtering and of course the more contaminate the filters get the greater drop in pressure.

 

[AH64ID]

What you mean by flow is Volume correct? Yep. . Don’t believe the ratings, the True test of filtration is pressure Pre and Post filters, You should always see a significant drop after filtering. NO drop minimal filtering and of course the more contaminate the filters get the greater drop in pressure.

Yes I am talking volume.



Ratings are all we have to go off of. I'm not going to add a second gauge just to test "ratings". But based on my 9psi reading at idle and 10psi coasting I would say that I am not getting much drop across the filters.



With modern synthetic media you can have minimal pressure drop and still have all the filtration. Look at the Amsoil EaO oil filters, 25K mile service interval and 15um filtration. Thats the longest service life and best full flow filtration available.



A filter will also filter more efficiently with contamination, right up until it blocks flow.



I think one of the reasons my setup has shown so little drop in 30K miles is because my 3 filters are sequential. The BF1212 is 20um absolute, then my 5um PF7977, then the 2um Cat 1R-0750. So the finer filters aren't having to filter any big junk, and the 1212 is the largest filter and holds the most dirt.

 

[TCDiesel]

Ratings are all we have to go off of. I'm not going to add a second gauge just to test "ratings". But based on my 9psi reading at idle and 10psi coasting I would say that I am not getting much drop across the filters



This link will explain Most of the rating game http://www.filtercouncil.org/uploads/docs/TSB/English/89-5R3.pdf



The higher the Mic rating should = Restriction (Lower Pressure)

The only Time(s) this does not apply is when Using LOW pressure that equals the filters Volume rating Example: A filter rated at 5GPM @ 3PSI 2Mic will NOT show a drop in pressure if pump at these Numbers. Now use the same filter @ 2. 5 GPM @ 10PSI. The pressure should drop significantly. If Not what is the explanation, I can only conclude that we now Need to raise the MIC rating(s)



Quality filters that filter solid liquids do not filter better as more contaminates are absorb, the restriction increases = Lower pressure less volume.

 

[BKneeland]

BKneeland
120k+ miles on my on 04. 5 engine fuel transfer pump... ... ...
A couple of years ago a friend of mine who is a heavy equipment "earth moving" contractor (he runs Dodges/Fords/CATS/Internationals/JDEERS/Etc. ) gave me a bottle of FPPF Lubricity Plus Fuel Power sold here in Oklahoma City by Thompson Diesel (highly reputable company) and I have been adding it ever since ($10 32oz bottle treats 250 gallons). He is old school diesel guy works on all his equipment he said if you want to extend the components of your truck with the new ULSD add this to every tank full.
My Dodge has only been been using ULSD for about half of its life, I have always purchased quality fuel from major brand stations. Possibly?? FPPF has helped (it meets ASTM6079 HFRR for fuel lubricity) my fuel transfer pump last this long. When I receive Geno's replacement fuel transfer pump (FDP4089602) I will save my old working pump for a spare...

 

[AH64ID]

This link will explain Most of the rating game http://www.filtercouncil.org/uploads/docs/TSB/English/89-5R3.pdf

The higher the Mic rating should = Restriction (Lower Pressure)
The only Time(s) this does not apply is when Using LOW pressure that equals the filters Volume rating Example: A filter rated at 5GPM @ 3PSI 2Mic will NOT show a drop in pressure if pump at these Numbers. Now use the same filter @ 2. 5 GPM @ 10PSI. The pressure should drop significantly. If Not what is the explanation, I can only conclude that we now Need to raise the MIC rating(s)

Quality filters that filter solid liquids do not filter better as more contaminates are absorb, the restriction increases = Lower pressure less volume.

Pressure does not mean flow. You can have super high pressure and no flow due to restriction, or very low pressure and no restriction and lots of flow. Pressure is a measure of flow x restriction. So to increase flow in the stock system you either have to drop restriction (big line kit and banjo's) or increase pressure. But as long as the flow is less than rated flow then you are within that filters spec. Most of the PSID's for filters are on dirt holding, i. e. the Baldwin PF7977 will hold 25. 5grams at 5. 5PSID.

The filters I run are all rated at more flow than my OE pump provides. The lowest flow filter is the OE filter at 60GPH. From what I have found the OE pump only flows 52GPH at most. So with flowing less fuel there should be no restriction issues.

They do filter better because the contaminates increase the surface area for other contaminates to cling to.

 

[BKneeland]

AH64ID -- Does GDP confirm no flow problems (pressure/volumn) with stock OEM pumps using the MK-2 + big Line Kit 03-07 Dodge Ram?
How much time to install?
i see you went with a CAT filter is it also 2 micro? Part Number?
Thanks for info.
Bkneeland

 

[AH64ID]

AH64ID -- Does GDP confirm no flow problems (pressure/volumn) with stock OEM pumps using the MK-2 + big Line Kit 03-07 Dodge Ram?

How much time to install?

i see you went with a CAT filter is it also 2 micro? Part Number?

Thanks for info.

Bkneeland

Yes they do. They even claim up to a 1psi increase at the pump. . So that tells me it really reduces restriction. I cannot confirm a psi increase but it will all depend on how your in-tank bypasses.



The Cat is 1R-0750 and is 2um absolute, where the FF5320 (GDP) is 5um absolute.



It took me an hour or so to install.

 

[AABEN]

I thinking of building the same setup with wix 10 micron water seperator #24348 1st with drain then a wix 2 micron 33528 next on the frame rails.

Looks cheap enough about 75. 00 for bases and filters.

Will this strain the in tank pump?

Will this wax and freeze up with treated dino in the coldest months?

NO jest get some Howes Diesel Treat and use it. I have run it in my truck from day one. You will find it at most large truck stops. jest read the info. I run it all year.

 

[BKneeland]

How long did your fuel pumps last with HOWES Diesel Treat?
Any FUEL filter add-on vs. OEM?
What ASTM spec does Hoes meet?
Thanks for your reply

 

[BKneeland]

I indicated that I would check and see what size filter is typical for a retail diesel (Shell/Mobil/Loves/Conoco/Etc. ) station. According to Petroleum Marketers Inc. in Oklahoma City a large company that installs UG pumps/piping/fuel dispensers (where one swipes a credit card):
For Diesel 30 micron filter
For gasoline 10 micron filter
With a OEM diesel fuel filter at 7 micron and a 30 micron (clean working filter) fuel station filter that about 428% larger than what is on the truck.
Looks like the diesel that goes into our Dodges there is lots of improvement to clean-up "FILTER" the diesel before it enters the high pressure fuel pump and injectors... ... ... ... .

 

[BKneeland]

Received my Geno's Garage Fuel Replacement Diesel Filter for my 04. 5 (120, 850 miles) OEM original PUMP still working (will say for a spare). On the Box:

"Federal Mogul FP-4089602 Electric Fuel Pump"

I noticed as the PIC in Geno's catalog shows a small in-line metal filter.

THIS LITTLE METAL FILTER (something I would install on my lawnmower) LOOKS LIKE IT COULD:

1. EASILY CLOG IF USING B10? B5? BIODIESEL AT COLD TEMPERATURES.

2. THE IN-LINE FILTER'S LOCATION MAKES FOR SERVICING (replacement) DARN NEAR IMPOSSIBLE!

I am thinking about staying with the existing OEM 3/8" bent hose on the truck which does not have the in-line FILTER.

Does anyone have an comments on this.

 

[RBridenbaugh]

... Geno's Garage Fuel Pump Replacement Diesel... "Federal Mogul FP-4089602 Electric Fuel Pump"

I noticed as the PIC in Geno's catalog shows a small in-line metal filter.

THIS LITTLE METAL FILTER (something I would install on my lawnmower) LOOKS LIKE IT COULD:

1. EASILY CLOG IF USING B10? B5? BIODIESEL AT COLD TEMPERATURES.

2. THE IN-LINE FILTER'S LOCATION MAKES FOR SERVICING (replacement) DARN NEAR IMPOSSIBLE!

I am thinking about staying with the existing OEM 3/8" bent hose on the truck which does not have the in-line FILTER.

Does anyone have an comments on this.

I'd contact the Carter /FP Diesel technical people via their on-line question system and ask them what the pore size of that in-line filter is (the division of Federal Mogul that makes these pumps). Reading the Tech tips on their WEBSITE they talk about the compromise 70 micron filtration needed on the suction side of the pump to prevent premature failure of the pump from debris.



They list the two common failure mechanisms for fuel pumps



1. ) Debris: No suction side strainer. Long term wear due to compromise choice of 70 micron strainer, on the inlet, vs. strainer surface area, still passing smaller debris. Clogged strainer or strainer not changed along with pump (pump works harder, pulls more amps, burns out)



2. ) Low Voltage: Corroded, loose contacts or connections (power or ground side) leading to a voltage drop while running (pump works harder, pulls more amps, burns out). Concerned when voltage drop is 0. 2 to 0. 5 VDC or more. They recommend changing connectors when changing pump as well. They have picture of burned contacts and melted plastic connectors for Dodge and GM.



Seems to me that if might to useful to have an adequately size spin-on Fuel/water separator (10-30 micron) on the suction side of your new pump. Better pump life and better water removal

 

[BKneeland]

Good info... ... ... ... . thanks.
Was going to install the PUMP this weekend but could not reach the 5 mm hex bolts that hold the pump to the fuel filter element. I drove the -4. 5 up onto front ramps thinking with more rome to work under the truck I could reach the bolts NO LUCK. I have 37" sleeve length on my shirts "very long arms" but still could not reach up from under the truck to remove the pump. Removing and reinstalling from top side looks much worse.
I think with long enough extensions on my socket I could MAYBE at least get the 4 bolts off - but reinstalling -- getting the O-ring positioned, 4 hex bolts started would be all from under the truck a real B____.
Looks like I need a garage lift if I could stand under the truck installation would be easier.

 

[AH64ID]

Seems to me that if might to useful to have an adequately size spin-on Fuel/water separator (10-30 micron) on the suction side of your new pump. Better pump life and better water removal

Not only will it protect your pump better, but f/w seps work best on the suction side. .

 

[BKneeland]

Agree fuel-water filter(s) as close to the fuel tank and before the:
fuel transfer pump
high pressure, fuel pump
injectors
makes a lot of sense. To bad the OEM fuel-water filter element is located in such a position that prevents the installation of better filtration after the fuel runs through it.
It would be much better if the 7 micron OEM filter came first than an aftermarket ( 2 - 5 micron) filter after that.

 

[AH64ID]

Agree fuel-water filter(s) as close to the fuel tank and before the:

fuel transfer pump

high pressure, fuel pump

injectors

makes a lot of sense. To bad the OEM fuel-water filter element is located in such a position that prevents the installation of better filtration after the fuel runs through it.

It would be much better if the 7 micron OEM filter came first than an aftermarket ( 2 - 5 micron) filter after that.

Look in my sig. . I go Tank-LP(OEM)-BF1212-OEM Canister w/ PF7977--Cat 1R-0750-psi sender-CP3.