Injection pump timing

[Rockcrusher]

Purchased "factory" reconditioned injectors from Cummins Cal Pacific. After installation engine missed badly. Took back to Cummins and they spent all day trying to find the problem. After many $s I pulled injectors myself and took to Injector shop and they found three badly out of specs. They redid them for only a few dollars and the problem was solved. Should have gone to them in the first place.

I had also had Cummins install rebuilt fuel pump. Fuel milage droped from 18-19 to 16 mpg.

I suspect the timing may not have been set correctly when Cummins installed the pump.

Although the pump is under warranty, I'm reluctant to take it back. Everytime I go there it costs a fortune and the work is not good. Would take it to Jim Leonard, but he moved out of the area.

Can I check the timing myself? Seems I recall a thread about that. Its VE pump on 1990 unit.

 

[J DeMaio]

Hi:



You can check the timing but need a special tool. With the engine at top dead center there is a little screw in the back of the injection pump that you have to take out. It is directly in the center of the fuel lines where they hook to the pump. That's where you install your special gauge and then rotate the pump accordingly. Do a search on timing and you will get very good results. Hope this helps.



John

 

[paccool]

You also need to check TDC against the timing pin. Wentland set my pump up last year and found the pin was off about 2. 5 degrees.



The timing from factory is 1. 25. Mine is set at 1. 7. Lots of guys set around 1. 4.

 

[Power Wagon]

Originally posted by Rockcrusher

Purchased "factory" reconditioned injectors from Cummins Cal Pacific. After installation engine missed badly. Took back to Cummins and they spent all day trying to find the problem. After many $s I pulled injectors myself and took to Injector shop and they found three badly out of specs. They redid them for only a few dollars and the problem was solved. Should have gone to them in the first place.

I had also had Cummins install rebuilt fuel pump. Fuel milage droped from 18-19 to 16 mpg.

I suspect the timing may not have been set correctly when Cummins installed the pump.

Although the pump is under warranty, I'm reluctant to take it back. Everytime I go there it costs a fortune and the work is not good. Would take it to Jim Leonard, but he moved out of the area.

Can I check the timing myself? Seems I recall a thread about that. Its VE pump on 1990 unit.

You could not pay me enough money to run Cummins ReCon injectors. They make junk of the lowest order. They do NOT use new tips, but instead, tips from random injectors taken in as cores and then cleaned and fiddled with to try to make them pass the "pop" test, which is mostly meaningless in an running engine. We wasted most of a day, once, trying to fix a truck that smoked blue and white profusely when cold, and after getting frustrated, I yanked the injectors to find ReJunk part numbers on them. I could find NO apparent defect with a pop tester (pretty much only useful to determine opening pressure and if they leak profusely), yet replacing them resulted in an engine that did not smoke at all.

 

[Rockcrusher]

Originally posted by J DeMaio

Hi:



You can check the timing but need a special tool. With the engine at top dead center there is a little screw in the back of the injection pump that you have to take out. It is directly in the center of the fuel lines where they hook to the pump. That's where you install your special gauge and then rotate the pump accordingly. Do a search on timing and you will get very good results. Hope this helps.



John

By special tool, assume you mean (metric) "dial indicator"?

 

[Power Wagon]

The "special tool" is an adapter specifically designed to screw into the plunger bore of the pump, and hold a small dial indicator with a short extension on it in place. I've seen a couple variations for various VE equipped vehicles. The most interesting was several inches long, designed to clear the lines and other obstacles so you'd have to remove the least amount of stuff to check it.



The fuel pump shop uses the ones designed by the pump manufacturers to adjust the pump on the bench - and you pretty much have to remove the lines to use it.



None of them are cheap, BTW. Between the dial indicator and the adapter, you'll have well over $100 into it, perhaps over $200 depending on the source used for them.

 

[NOMOFO]

Hey Power Wagon, do you have the details on that tool combo that makes it the easiest on the truck? Given the fact that I have been quoted $120 to have it set, the $200 doesn't seem that bad. Particularly if one wants to experiment between that 1. 4 to 1. 7 range. I would love to do this myself as we don't have any first gen experts in this area that I can find. I recently joined the Ramrunners down here and they're real friendly and sharp (HVAC, BPINE,and others I'm meeting) but almost all 2nd gen guys, none of them have these tools, and I don't want to bore them too much. Ideally I would like to buy the tools, have an expert guide me the first time, and be as self sufficient as possible from then on. TIA for any info/recommendations.

 

[Power Wagon]

Generally, the dial indicator is a standard issue device, it's the adapter that's special.



I'll ask around, see what I can find on the adapter.

 

[NOMOFO]

Thanks PW, maybe the Snap-on YA8331 set? In its photo it looks like the adapter is nearly as long as the guage overall.

 

[Power Wagon]

Actually, I was thinking of one of the "aftermarket" fuel system tool manufacturers, one that makes the service adapter.



I'll try to find out Monday what it would cost. Probably less than Snap-On.

 

[bigkid59]

Hey NOMOFO!



Check www.sirtools.com and look for part number VA6015. This is the adapter to mount the dial indicator on the pump.



Hope this helps!

 

[Mel Fuelling]

I purchased a dial indicator extension from Midwest Diesel Injection of Fort Dodge, IA to use with one of the three dial indicators that I have for $45. 00. Unfortunately, the collet on the extension barrel was smaller than the stem housing on my dial indicators. Fortunately, a local flat tracker that I had mentored had a Yamaha

dial indicator(metric) with a stem housing that fits. After verifying

timing pin calibration and TDC, I found:

1) My spill port pump timing was 1. 23mm(CPL=1. 25)

2) I set my pump to 1. 5mm. (I don't know if it makes any more

horsepower, but the engine is so much more responsive,

builds boost quicker and seems to accelerate my loaded

work truck(8,300#) so effortlessly; that I won't go back to

1. 35 or 1. 25mm)

3) I'm going to have to try 1. 7 as soon as I have a chance.

4) I am disappointed that I'm not getting any better mpg, but

that may be directly related to exercising this improved

throttle response.

So far, its cost me $45. 00, one old favor, and about 1. 5hrs labor on my part to deliver a most noticeable improvement.

Suggestion: tagging your high pressure injection lines before removal will lower your anxiety level when reinstalling. A good Polaroid might be a reassembly help also. Neither is needed but you'll feel better if you take the time to do it.

 

[NOMOFO]

Hey all, thanks for the time and tips.

PW: will look forward to any more info you come up with. Snap-on prices do hurt.

BigKid59: looks like I will have to email or call Sirtools for more info as I can't find price on website.

Mel: glad you shared all of that. I'll always take anti anxiety tips!

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

Does anyone have an actual photo of the adapter that connects to the Inj. pump/dial indicator they can post. A close-up would be real nice.



T I A.





Bob

 

[Tim1]

Hey Mel, would it be possible for you to go thru the procedure a little bit on timing the pump. also, the dial indicator that you used,does it have a part number so we could find one. There isn't a shop around who will set the timing out of factory specs, so it would be nice to be able to accomplish this at home! I also will have to call on the adapter as I can't access it either. Do you have a phone number for the dealer where you purchased yours? Thanks Mel and have a Happy Christmas! Tim

 

[Mel Fuelling]

The VE Injection pump adapter that I bought from Midwest Diesel

Injection Service of Ft. Dodge, IA (515) 576-5501 is to be used with a metric dial indicator with a . 315" barrel. The most common barrel size is . 375" Leland at Midwest Diesel would have ordered me an adapter and dial indicator but he had the adapter alone at a reasonable price and I thought I had a dial indicator that would fit it so I bought it. When I first wanted to use it, I found that mine didn't fit, but I lucked out and borrowed one that would.

BushWakr, this adapter has a collet that slides over the barrel of a dial indicator that the measuring stem slides up and down in. The barrel extension is 3. 300" long, . 628"OD and the stem extension is 3. 520" long. It is well made and fits very securely,

giving me a high degree of confidence in the accuracy of measurements. It is black oxide coated and I don't think I can take a very good picture of it.

Tim1, I used the timing procedure listed on pages 14-117 and 14-

118 in the '93 Service Manual. It shows several pictures and has

text describing it much better than I could. In addition to this, I have the following suggestions:

1)Remove your fan shroud and your fan so that you can put

one wrench on the alternator nut(CCW) and one wrench on

a bolt in the HBalancer(CW) which gives you finer crankshaft

control. If your local daily high temps are below 60 degr. F. ,

this is a good time to box the fan and shroud and store them

in a vertical location until temps get high enough to need

them again.

2)Remove the two 5/8" bolts holding your vacum/pwr.

steering pump, slide it about 4-5" back towards the cab so

that you can get to the timing pin on your motor and to the

two rearward injection pump nuts. Stuff a large clean rag in

the opening in the rear of the timing cover to prevent dirt or

tools from entering.

3)Scribe a mark on your pump/rear timing cover before you

move anything, then remeasure changes 3 times to reduce

errors.

I would be glad to help anyone in the Midwest who wants to do this when time permits.

 

[Rockcrusher]

Thanks to all for the good info!

 

[Rockcrusher]

Re: Re: Injection pump timing

Originally posted by Power Wagon





You could not pay me enough money to run Cummins ReCon injectors. They make junk of the lowest order. They do NOT use new tips, but instead, tips from random injectors taken in as cores and then cleaned and fiddled with to try to make them pass the "pop" test, which is mostly meaningless in an running engine. We wasted most of a day, once, trying to fix a truck that smoked blue and white profusely when cold, and after getting frustrated, I yanked the injectors to find ReJunk part numbers on them. I could find NO apparent defect with a pop tester (pretty much only useful to determine opening pressure and if they leak profusely), yet replacing them resulted in an engine that did not smoke at all.

What injectors do you recommend?

 

[paccool]

Tim1

I don't know where in Oregon you are in relation to Wentland Diesel Injection but they will set the timing where you want it. They set mine at 1. 7 and I guarantee I'm farther from them than you are! It's a small shop but there are a great group of people there.

 

[Power Wagon]

Re: Re: Re: Injection pump timing

Originally posted by Rockcrusher



What injectors do you recommend?

Either use whole brand new injectors from Bosch or Lucas, or have a shop put brand new nozzles in your holders.



As to which injector, that depends on what you're trying to accomplish.



Just call Wentland Diesel at 800 822 3875 and they'll set you up with GOOD injectors. I used to be the injector guy there... I did almost all of them...



But now I'm becoming a computer geek... ain't life strange