injection pump timing

[jaynes]

Hey guys I haven't posted in like 5 months, whats goin on?



So i think one of the last posts I posted was on injection pump timing. I have a semi bad smoke problem at all RPMs, and someone told me it was more than likely my injection timing being a little retarted. So it was advised that I try to advance the timing by about 1/8, right? Correct me if I'm wrong. Well, I've been trying to do so, but I can't get the injection pump to move. I loosened all the bolts on the pump (or all that I could find) but it still won't budge. I'm refraining from removing the high press. fuel lines if I can at all help it. Can someone give me any advice? I think this problem needs fixed... my friends call me "Smokey" ! THANKS!



~jaynes~

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

Hi Smokey, long time no see... .



The pumps can a bit hard to move. In fact it usually needs a bit of brute force.

I remember answering this same question in much the same way recently so here goes...

First remove the throttle rod from the pump lever. Use care if yours has a small 3/4 circle spring clip at both ends of the rod.

Loosen off the top inside pump bolt, the bottom inside pump bolt, the rear 10mm reverse facing bolt, and just loosen the middle center pump bolt a bit.



Next get a rubber mallet and wack the AFC housing on it's top/body joint.

Watch to see if the index marks on the pump start to climb above your gear case marks. If no movement after a couple a tune up shots... . loosen the center nut a bit more and repeat the process.

Keep in mind that the pump is held pretty firmly by the fuel supply line, all the injection lines and that sort of stuff so unless you want to loosen all the junk up you'll need to BFT the thing..... (Blunt Force Tune)

You will need to use your left hand to hold the pump upward as you "tune it"... that way if you get it to move you can keep it from springing back down. Have your pump wrench handy so you can drop the mallet and crank the center bolt snug before it pops back down.



Mine was a real booger to do and it's been off and on a few times recently.





"... Remember, it's better to have tuned and lost than never to have tuned at all... . "





Pastor Bob

Our Lady Of Acceleration Church.

 

[cerberusiam]

"Blunt Force Tune", thats a good one Bob.



After much cussing and whacking I removed the boost elbow and return line and cracked the the delivery lines loose. Its a little more work but it did wonders for my blood pressure. Easier to stand on my head and set the timing mark correctly too.

 

[Clarkoh]

BFB Works too!

I got 'er all loosened up and used a Big F'in Bar to exert some Brute Force. An extra hand from my son exerting pressure on the BFB, while I tightened the nuts kept the advance, advanced!



Snapon's SP144 wrench is great for those hard to reach/see/ loosen nuts!

 

[Greenleaf]

The "Pull Over" Method

Yeserie, the pull over method works for me. In a nut shell; I loosened all the mounting hardware,located the largest channel lock type pliers in my box,then pulled it over toward the cylinder head by spanning the distance between the TPS bracket and the intake manifold cover mounting cap screw [bolt]



Advancing the timing is quick,easy,and it should be the law... ... ...



Greenleaf

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

Seeee, I told ya... . I luv it when a plan comes together... ...



Aint it funny how we all seem to use such "care and delicate precission" when what we often need is a BFB or LHH (large honkin hammer)



Ohhhhh I know I'm gonna hear about the abbreviations as subtitutes for expletives..... BFB = big flat bar.



pastor bob.....



Take not the Cummins name in vane...



FYI, this is all in fun here, and no slight is intended... ... (just to clarify)

 

[jaynes]

wow...all those abbreviations...

Thats some good info! Yeah, i didn't have a rubber mallet when I tried... i used a towel and a regular hammer ! But it still didn't move. I'm going to Wal-Mart tonight, so I'll pick one up. I'll take all this advice and put it to good use tomorrow. I'll let you guys know if I got anything working. Thanks a bunch!



"And the Lord hath spoke unto his people in saying, 'Thou shalt not let retarded injection timing smote thee!' "



Jaynes 3:14

 

[cerberusiam]

If the pump has never been adjusted and the gasket between the pump and housing is stuck to both you can't get a bar big enough to move that pump without loosening all the bolts and lines and then taking a knife to one edge or other of the gasket. A tube of silicone in some peoples hands is a dangerous thing.

 

[jaynes]

I sure hope thats not the case!

 

[GTX_Joel]

How about a drive report with the timing advanced? Did it help alot?

 

[Clarkoh]

I LIKE the results

She snaps to in the morning. Barely rotates and it is running, exhaust is clean as a whistle and it has more response. Have not checked economy accurately, yet. But it seems to be better on fuel. New injectors are right around the corner.



BTW, when I used the BFB, the pump had just come back from a rebuild, so the gaskets had not been compressed for 190,000!



Do not forget the 4th bolt on the end away from the timing housing, either.

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

Recent events led me to try some rather 'advanced' timing on my truck...

Now the Mrs. who hardly says much about my experiments (which is a large improvement from what she used to say) got in the truck a few days back. Off she went to the store and on her return she came in and the first thing she said was "... ... what did you do... . I just touch the peddle and it wants to jump up a tree. . "



Thank you... thank you very much... .



Pastor bob



Looks like we got another parishoner quoting the scripture according to Our Lady Of Acceleration Church..... good on ya bud. .









Pastor Bob.

 

[Midnite]

Originally posted by BushWakr

Recent events led me to try some rather 'advanced' timing on my truck...

So how much more did you advance it Bob?





Mike

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

Oh I figure my timing was advanced about 2 days... ...



Seriously, the pump was pinned at 1. 7mm and from there I ran about the 1/8" setting. I haven't had a chance to hook up take a reading on the overall setting yet, but I will because I need to know how far is too far...



ps: went thru 2 start/stop solenoids at that level... bummed me out... . I did get some wierd looks when I pulled in to park, jumped out, lifted the hood and it suddenly stopped..... folks musta thought I was "not right"...



Pastor Bob.

 

[jaynes]

bummer...

Well Pastor Bob, i advanced the pump. Went out and bought myself a rubber mallet. Banged the heck out of it, but I didn't have anything to measure the marks with, but i think it's alittle more than 1/8. I started it up, and there was still some smoke even at idle, not in gear. Sooo, I advanced it more! Now, it has a bit more of a growl to it when I rev it up, there is no smoke at idle, but when I put it in gear, it starts smoking again, just like it used to. So to summerize, the only difference I seemed to make was more growl (which I like), no smoke at no load idle, and there might, might be just alittle more kick. So all in all, doesn't seem like it made that much difference. Any suggestions? Should I advance it more?! Or is that a bad idea. I'm stuck!



~jaynes~

 

[dpuckett]

I'd say if you like how it runs, and it doesnt smoke, leave it be. I may try advancing mine a little more, esp since the good reverend has advanced his with no problem. But... . will too much advance put more stress on the pump, or just increase pressure on the pistons? I need to re-read the scripture on the internal workings of the VE.

jaynes, wherabouts in Columbia are you? Next time I'm up that way, I might stop and say hi. I'm hoping to go to Midway's New Year's Eve bull riding. Only 15 lbs to go and I'll be back into it. Oo.



Daniel

 

[jaynes]

Well dpuckett, It does still smoke alittle, but only when I put in gear. And I can't really tell a difference in the way it runs... i might have alittle more kick, can't really tell. It just sounds slightly different. If I can advance it more, that might make a bit of difference. But it's already advanced, and I think it's more than 1/8 and i'm worried about screwing something up. So if you have any ideas after you read of the Scriptures again, that'd be awesome. As far as where I live goes, I live on the south side of town in Boone County, which is where Columbia, Missouri is. That'd be great if you stopped by on your way through... i've never actually met another TDR member before. Just keep in touch and let me know! Also if you find any more info on how far I can advance my pump, let me know that too! Thanks!



jaynes

 

[dpuckett]

Jaynes,



Didnt see anything in the Scripture that led me to believe any pump damage could be incurred by excesive advance. But you get into the issue of too much advance trying to spray the fuel in too soon, and opposing the action of the piston, making for a less than ideal situation, to say the least. You see, the fuel takes a certain time to burn, varied by spray pattern, amount of fuel, cumbustion chamber design, piston bowl, compression ratio, and a few other variables I have probably left out. That is why you spray it in BEFORE it reaches TDC, so it can heat up and start to burn when the piston reaches TDC, and it can force the piston down, thus creating power and/ or RPMs. Slight advances make it force the piston down with greater force, making more power, but too much can oppose the piston before it reaches TDC, causing a serious knock. With stock injectors, and less than wild pump tweaks, I'd not be too scared of permanent damage to the pump; just listen to it, and if it sounds funny, turn it off and go back to where you were before.



BTW- how many miles are on your truck? I had a set of injectors popping 800 psi low and squirting more than spraying at 150K. Clean and recalibrate got the truck back to what it should have been. But if you need 1 new tip you need 6. These engines are very sensitive to unequal fuel flow across the cylinders. If you use 5 old tips, and put in 1 new one (and needle valve, as well as the tip); the 5 old ones will flow just a hair more, due to the wear of 150K miles of fuel (10Kgallons?) kind of honing them enough over the new stock to upset the balance of the whole set. At least that's my theory. I had the 6 cleaned, and reassembled, and gained 3 mpg. Mom had hers done later that summer at the same place, but had to get a new tip in one, and it didnt change the engine a bit. I figure the new tip is flowing enough less fuel to make it idle just a hair off. It has a kind of lopey miss at idle, and isnt as smooth in accelerating as it was when I first got it 100K ago.



Daniel

 

[jaynes]

My injectors I just replaced with remanufactured ones Thanksgiving, 2002. So in theory, they should be in perfect working order. I just don't know what else would cause it to smoke as much as it does. Like I said, it's really noticable when you put it in gear and keep your foot on the brake. It just pumps out a constant think plume of grey smoke. But it doesn't seem to do it when it's just sitting there idling in park. Think there could be an air leak somehwere? Would that do it? Or what about air in the fuel lines, would that do it to? I'm confused!



jaynes

 

[Midnite]

For what it's worth, I have heard very little good about Cummins reman injectors (I'm assuming that's what you've got).



Mike