injection pump

[DGamelin]

My problem started out on the highway pulling a load at 70 miles per hour. With no loss of power. I had a bad fuel leak coming from the bloke side of the pump. One of the bolts backed out of the KSB solenoid plate. I lost the o-ring under the plate. I took the pump off and replaced the o-ring. Then I put it back together and set the timing at 1. 25. The motor stagers when you gaped the motor half way up. I figured it was air. The next day when I went out to start it during the daylight it had an incredible amount of blue smoke. I let it run for ten minutes and it did't get better. The temp. out side was about 30. Because of the play in the TDC button I moved it another ten. It didn't help. But when the motor is completely warmed up the smoke is gone. There is power coming from the air temp. switch when it's hot. I am waiting to check it cold. I'm not quite sure what the KSB silniod is for. I'm guessing it changes the amount of fuel when the motor is cold. I don't know if it should have power when it is cold or when it is hot. Issue 40 page 44 says that the air temp. switch is prone to failing. It seems odd this would happen just as the o-ring blew. If the pump timing was wrong you would think the blue smoke would be there all the time inst-ed of just when cold. 1 What does the KSB valve do? 2 What do you suggest would be the ideal pump timing? 3When setting pump timing the TDC has about . 20 of play. What side of the play would you start at? Turing the engine in runing direction would it be immediately as the pin fell in or the other side of the play? Or am I missing the problem all together? My Chilton's manual is useless. Would appreciate the help.



cold up north

 

[nascar mark]

Hi,

The KSB advances timing when intake air temp is below 59 degs. You can check to see if your KSB is working at any time (hot or cold engine) by using a jumper wire from your battery's + side to the terminal on the KSB. If engine rpm's come up about 50 rpm (you can here a very slight increase) then it is working. If you don't hear a change in the engines rpm's then it is not working.



I'm just wondering?

Did you turn the engine over at any time while you had the pump out? Or did you find your TDC before pump removal or after replacing pump?



I would verify that the pump gear didn't slip a tooth and set timing to 1. 5 degs.

 

[DGamelin]

Hello,

I checked the KSB lead wire, it's hot. Wire on or wire off the RPM's didn't change. I did set it at TDC before I took it apart. When pulling the gear, every thing jumped and the thought accorderd to me about it jumping a tooth. I didn't know how well it would run if it was one tooth off. I delivered a snowblower today with it. At highway speed the truck ran great pulling a trailer with other implements.

 

[nascar mark]

My guess is if the KSB is getting power and you didn't hear a change in rpm's then the KSB is not working. With that said the blue smoke would be present at cold temps. I would bump your timing up to 1. 5 and this will help you with the cold weather running.

I don't use my KSB at all for cold weather advance as I run high timing and with the pump turned up I don't want to blow a O-ring if I can help it. Truck starts fine and runs good in the cold weather.



Mark

 

[DGamelin]

Just to get it clarify my KSB is supposed to get power when cold and none when hot or vicevercia. Do you think it could run as good as it does if it was one tooth off?



My truck is bone stock, 250 2wd xcab auto 176k. It was bought to deliver tractors. I intend to put a driver in it. So mods didn't sound like a good idea. As much as I would like to.



I like the sound of your truck.

 

[Greenleaf]

KSB

I got the manual open to the fuel system section, KSB Solenoid. What do ya wanna know?



Scott

 

[Greenleaf]

Just read this and shall post word for word what I have here in the Bible... ... ... ... ...



KSB solenoid will click when energized/de-energized. The circuit contains a 3 ohm resistor. The resistor drops voltage to 10 v. Do not apply 12 v to solenoid. If solenoid does not click when 10 v is applied, replace solenoid.



I also read this; When solenoid is energized,internal pump pressure reaches 116 psi. When not energized, internal psi is 58.



Voltage is supplied to solenoid through the ignition switch.



The air temp switch is mounted in the intake manifold next to the charge air temp sensor. The switch is open at and above 90*F



That is what my manual says... ... .....

Oh, BTW, the switch is the rear most unit in the intake manifold.



Scott

 

[DGamelin]

Hey Scott,

I checked the power out of the thermal switch. It had an even 11 volts. Tomorrow I'll check the solenoid with 10 volts with engine off. If I don't here a click I'll check the resistance. If solenoid is working I will have to check my timing. I don't have a decent shop manual. If you feel ambitious could you give me timing instructions. I appreciate the tech info. Now I can do some test.



Thank You

 

[Greenleaf]

Happy to help



I also found this; The KSB is not an output of the engine control module {ECM}

And it states that the solenoid is energized through the air temp switch. So,,,I guess you will have power to the solenoid until the switch cuts it off at 90*.



As far as timing... ... ... ... . what did you have in mind? You know to use the timing pin. By the way, this can be off by a few deg. Did you want info as pertaining to the use of the dial gauge to check timing/plunger lift? I'll send you anything you need from the manual. You may want to do a search on timing to get some ideas to what others are doing. It's been a popular topic.



BTW, did you lock the pump in position prior to it's removal?



Scott

 

[DGamelin]

I have already checked the wire it goes from the KSB to temp. switch back to the fuel cut off for power.

I did use the TDC pin . It has over . 20 of play in it.

Yes I need the presager for dial gage timing/plunger/lift.

I work in a shop as a mechanic. I usually handle all the diesels that come in. We have lots of fords and some Chevy's. We have shop manuals, no problem. We had only 1 dodge diesel come in since I have worked there{lift pump}. So we don't have a Cummings shop manual. I have a Chilton's and it is useless. I am going to order one. The time proceager would be a big help. Thank you for the help.

 

[Greenleaf]

Not certain this is what u want cause your gonna need the tool to do it... ...



Note; 1mm rotation past timing marks will advance/retard timing 1* depending on direction of rotation.



Note; If the timing pin is incorrectly located on the gear housing the pump will not be timed correctly.



Locate TDC by turning the engine in running direction while pushing in on timing pin. Stop turning as soon as pin slides into place.



Use a 12mm wrench and remove the plug from end of the pump. Do not bend high pressure lines out of the way. Remove them.

Install Bosch timing tool no. 3377259 or equivalent. Cummins/Snap-on etc.

Indicator is marked in . 01mm and one rev of indicator is equal to . 50mm

Bar engine opposite direction of rotation until the indicator stops moving. Adjust face to to read zero.

Rotate engine to TDC while counting the no. of rotations on indicator. The reading shown when timing pin engages is the amount of plunger lift at this point.

You will need 1. 5 to 1. 7mm

Rotate the pump on it's mounting studs until indicator reads correct value.



Remove timing indicator/install plug/back out timing pin to run position.



Scott



Is it possible that you rotated the pump after removal from the engine? And I do not know how to reposition the timing pin if it should be off. The manual tell me to reposition the timing pin. Says that the factory "precisely locates this"







Scott

 

[DGamelin]

Yes this is what I wanted. I have all the snap on tools. When the truck broke down on me, 400 miles away, I called my snap on man and told him to have everything there for me when I got back with my broken truck. I guess I should have ordered a decent manual too. This is the same processor I followed from a Mitchell male. But it said to use the timing on the plate on the engine is 1. 25. Is 1. 5 to 1. 7 what Dodge calls for. Do you have a Cummings manual? If this is the timing I needed then I have the timing a little lazy and I don't think the KSB solenoid is working. I looked at it quickly today.



Thanks for the info.





On the side of the road I did mes with the timing. This is why I am starting over. I didn't remove the time pin assembly.

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

A timing value of 1. 5 to 17mm plunger lift is not the "manual" value. It is the value/range that alot of experimenting/tinkering/dyno'ing etc has found to be the best all around value.

The larger injectors usually have a higher pop-off pressure. That results in the injector needing more time for enough pressure to build in order for it to open, spray the fuel cloud, and close.

This longer time requirement results in the timing being "retarded" due to that lag increase.

You can go with 1. 55 to1. 7mm plunger lift. Mine is now at 1. 7mm and I haven't had any problems so far.



Bob.

 

[Greenleaf]

I have both the Cummins and Dodge Truck Manuals. The Cummins book has the info for the 4 cyl as well as the 6 along with all sorts of options and injection pumps.



Scott

 

[JCarrillo]

Hi Scott,

I have some questions about your manuals. I am planning on buying one(both?). Which one do you like the most? Also, when you got the cummins manual, did you order it by the CPL # or did you just ask for one for a B-series? Is the dealer the only place to get the dodge manual? Can you order the timing tools(dial indicater) from cummins?Thanks in advance for any info you can provide me with!



Joseph

 

[Greenleaf]

Service Publications

I'm not long winded today..... (crowd cheers)... .



Reading top to bottom;

Like 'em both.

Ordered "B" series (not ISB)

Cummins manual from local OTR truck dealer

Dodge truck manual from a publishing co.

Get your indicator from Snap-On



ps I have the Cummins manual to use on my school buses. They are equipped with different options and needed this publication. You won't need this one.



Scott

 

[DGamelin]

HELLO

Because of the hours I work. I will not be able to look at my truck until this weekend. The help has been great! I think I got it narrower down. I have order some manuals. I will let you how it goes.

 

[DGamelin]

Bushwakr among other have convinced me 1. 5 to 1. 7 is safe. I had said my KSB is not working. I will fix this. You said [nascar mark] with this setting you don't use your KSB. With the KSB working is it still safe with these setings? I hall tractors all over th country. I need reliability. Right now the truck makes me money by not coasting me any. But I wouldn't mined making it a little more crisp.



Thank You







I have read the post detailed VE pump info and I hope this isn't to long or rambling by Bushwakr. Pretty impressive stuff. Can't Wait for my shop manuals and time to do some tinkering.

 

[nascar mark]

Its not the pumps timing and KSB that threatens the KSB's O-ring as the pump doesn't care less were the timing is set to. Its the combo of cold weather and a pump thats turned up pretty good that threatens the O-rings in most cases.

Most KSB O-rings fail in cold weather due to the fuel being thicker, causing higher than normal pump pressure when the KSB kicks in. When temps drop and you start your truck the KSB kicks in, pump pressure is doubled and if your O-ring seal has a weak spot from old age or heat stress, POP!! you have a leak.

 

[DGamelin]

Hello,

Company showed up for the weekend got nothing done. My last question wasn't about a concern for the o-ring, Mine failed because one of the bolts had backed out. What I wanted to know is this. Someone further back said the function of the KSB when working is equivalent to adding five degrees of timing. If I'm at 1. 5 to 1. 7. Would the additional 5 degrees from the KSB be to much total timing?





Thanks for the replies and all the help.