Injector knock fixed - Still a little mad about findings...

[JStieger]

how is carbon around the outside of the injector going to cause knock??? i can see it causing a knock if it is on the tip and distorts the spray pattern, but if it is up from there in the part that is inside the cylinder head below the copper crush washer that should in no way cause knock...



something seems very fishy about that diagnosis to me. .

Those pictures looked like mine on my thread here:



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136945



As far as the carbon build up, Industrial Injection hooked up my old injectors to a test stand that would pump up to +/- 5,000 psi solution through the injectors while an electric circuit activated the solenoids. Only at at 5,000 psi did my injectors actually start spraying; below this pressure the injectors were just dribbling or had a really pathetic 1/2 ***** spray pattern. Granted that the test stand was made for older style injectors, but it was enough to show what was happening with mine.



The surprising thing (to me, but maybe normal to the diesel experts) was that when the injectors were taken apart, there was carbon flakes INSIDE them. I wouldn't know how an additive would take care of this unless you run the truck really hard such that high rail pressures were maintained all the time to break this carbon up.

 

[Diesel Nut]

Sounds like a good excuse for some bigger sticks!



As far as additives go, Amsoil has several fifferent additives available depending on what you want, and they are mixable and a decent price! Check em out if you want!

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/adc.aspx

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/acb.aspx

 

[nickleinonen]

Industrial Injection hooked up my old injectors to a test stand that would pump up to +/- 5,000 psi solution through the injectors while an electric circuit activated the solenoids. Only at at 5,000 psi did my injectors actually start spraying; below this pressure the injectors were just dribbling or had a really pathetic 1/2 ***** spray pattern

that sounds normal to me. the hpcr injectors need a good bit of pressure and volume of flow to get good atomization. . as when you are energizing the injector to fire, you also loose a good bit of fuel through the return circuit. so if you don't have the flow to maintain the pressure, you will get poor atomization [dribbling]. the solenoid isn't physically lifting the needle in the injector, the solenoid opens a spill circuit and the pressure differential across the 2 sides of the needle valve change enough for it to pop open and spray into the cylinder. this happens near instantly

 

[RKraft]

Tom,

When I worked in automotive field as a tech we used the BG induction cleaner. You would just unhook a main vacuum line run engine to 2500 rpms and open valve and let it suck that cleaner in. It would lug engine down and would it stick when you were done. But it seemed to work pretty good. As for on the diesel's we did not do any work on them the service manager was afraid of them. Personally I would rather work on them in stead of gas engines. That is probably why I change to heavy equipment and truck field. Just my 2 cents on their product.



Randy

 

[Tomeygun]

Tom,

When I worked in automotive field as a tech we used the BG induction cleaner. You would just unhook a main vacuum line run engine to 2500 rpms and open valve and let it suck that cleaner in. It would lug engine down and would it stick when you were done. But it seemed to work pretty good. As for on the diesel's we did not do any work on them the service manager was afraid of them. Personally I would rather work on them in stead of gas engines. That is probably why I change to heavy equipment and truck field. Just my 2 cents on their product.



Randy

Well our BG sales rep thinks SOOO highly of this BG diesel "full service" injection cleaner, That he is giving my a full kit to use on my truck at no charge, The truck will actually run on the BG "fuel/cleaner" direct w/o any connection to my tank for like 15 minutes (plus a bottle in the tank, and an oil additive right in the oil), And I agreed to post my findings when I pull my injectors (Hopefully John Isaac will have some bigger nozzles for me soon )



So I will let you all know if the other 5 injectors are clean, OR if they are still all carboned up



PS - nice thread JStieger, darn good reading!

 

[ssanders60]

Tommy's injectors

My '03 H/O with 43,000 miles on it also has problem on some

days when you first crank it. As I pull out of the drive way

the engine starts loping and it will almost shut down and continues

to run erratic or uneven for a couple of miles and rattles like

marbles in a bucket. It's driven 90% in town Jacksonville with many

traffic light stops. However when you give it 1/2 to 2/3's throttle

it pulls out of the slump like nothing is wrong with it. In older models

I would say that probability is 99% on it being from driving too slow

and never working hard enough to keep running smoothly, and still

think that is my problem in this case. After reaching operating temp.

it sounds much better but just a bit inconsistant, certainly unlike

a new truck or when this one was new. I don't have a hard knock

and I'll just drive it since the fuel mileage is excellent and it doesn't

smoke. If anyone suspects another problem, I'm all ears.



'03, quad cab, 43RE, 4X4, slt, all stock, nothing except normal service

has been performed on it.

 

[nickleinonen]

The truck will actually run on the BG "fuel/cleaner" direct w/o any connection to my tank for like 15 minutes (plus a bottle in the tank, and an oil additive right in the oil)

does it get sprayed into the intake, or is it plumbed into the fuel inlet piping feeding the lift pump or cp3??? i sure hope it is the second, as if it is fed into the intake unmetered, hello run away engine. .

 

[Tomeygun]

does it get sprayed into the intake, or is it plumbed into the fuel inlet piping feeding the lift pump or cp3??? i sure hope it is the second, as if it is fed into the intake unmetered, hello run away engine. .

It acts as a fuel tank, even with a return line...



I will be doing this BG service for sure, because I still have a slight knock (kind of like what this #4 injector sounded like before It got progressivly worse) -- So I know other injectors are carboned up

 

[CumminsWill82]

Pour two 16 oz cans of Seafoam when filling up and fill up only half a tank. I tried that @12k miles and what a difference ran quieter and smooth. As soon as you do this go run it hard and smoke up the town

 

[sag2]

JStieger

The injectors can not be tested correctly unless you have enough pressure and volume to re-seat them. I tried to make a bench tester also to verify a bad injector. I cut one cylinder off an old head and used the old Miller pop tester tool from the first generation diesels. What I found was you could only pop it one time, and then the injector just stayed open and sprayed streams of fuel out of the nozzle. Apparently the Miller tool can not supply enough pressure and volume to re-seat the injector. What I need to do is design an injector holder I can plumb into the truck and supply fuel from the rail. I am a bit reluctant to do it because I have it plumbed with compression fittings to hook the factory injector line to the Miller tool outlet. But I guess if I use the truck rail I can just use a factory line. just trying not to hurt anyone!

 

[JStieger]

Sag2-



I do agree with the volume and pressure requirements for properly testing the CR injectors. That being said, I am far from an injector expert and I just wanted to clarify the tool the shop had wasn't designed for 3rd gen injectors as much as they wanted/wished it to be! Specifically, it was used for bench testing non-common rail injectors from all makes and sizes, but they just got curious and hooked it up to my injectors (injectors had already been removed from the head) with an electrical source to activate the solenoids to see how the spray pattern looked since all my problems were just off-idle without matting the pedal anyway (in the typical 4,xxx to 5,xxx psi range). They used a hand pump that looked like a grease gun lever to generate up to 5,000 psi. The tool's injector holder looked like the cross nozzle that goes in the CTD head.



I don't know how many holes are at the end of the 100 HP DD3 305/555 injector nozzle, but even at a CONSISTENT 4,000 psi some of the holes produced a decent noticeable spray, whereas the other holes weren't outputting anything. If they were outputting anything, it was barely a dribble. Then when they cranked the pressure up to the limit of their tool (5,000 psi), then the plugged holes started spraying, but their spray pattern was more "cross-eyed" for lack of a better description - kind of like a scaled up shower massage head (or have you seen the movie "Me, myself, and Irene :-laf "?). Also, the spray pattern didn't stop as long they pumped the lever to maintain the 4,000-5,000 psi. If they pumped the lever to maintain a CONSISTENT 4200 psi then the spray pattern was combination good spray,nothing, dribble, and/or crossed. If they pumped the pressure to maintain a CONSISTENT 5,000 psi then the spray pattern improved. I'm just saying what I saw with my own eyes made sense to me.



The bottom line for me was that it 99. 9999% showed me what was happening with my truck at the rpm range where the problem repeatedly occurred. The problem also kept on happening without generating any codes! Then after I saw this I got new injectors put in and the problem 100% went away.



I will say, though, that if my problems were happening under high rail pressure demands, then this tool they had would have told me squat!

 

[Tomeygun]

Start sled pulling your rig. That ought to get rid of that carbon in a hurry. :-laf

My first attempt to blow carbon out of the engine:



http://tomeygun.com/misc/smokevid/NEEDTIRES.MPG







Good thing I ordered NITTOs today

 

[JStieger]

Tomeygun Enterprises



"If I didn't test it, I won't sell it" -- Tomeygun​

:-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf



Getting into the tire business too??

 

[Tomeygun]

Getting into the tire business too??

hahaha, what can I say - I wanted to see if michelins would get gooey - and yep, they sure did!



I do think I need a DD now, Cause that OFE was hating life when I reached for 5th and lost alot of wheel speed

 

[SRadke]

Michelins can get really gooey All it takes is a bunch of RPM but if'n you want to hurry it up a bit add a little bleach

 

[jimnance]

My first attempt to blow carbon out of the engine:



http://tomeygun.com/misc/smokevid/NEEDTIRES.MPG







Good thing I ordered NITTOs today

Tommy, I'm probably gonna get jumped for posting this, but Marvel Mysterey oil is in fact a pretty strong solvent as well as lubricant. Regular use may keep the injectors clean and it's pretty reasonably priced at Wally World in the big bottles. Good Stuff. I've used it in aircraft to free stuck rings.

 

[SGBARRACUDA]

My truck used to have a knock. Had it from 8K miles to abut 35K miles. Annoyed the snot out of me. I tried Power Service for a while with no change. I bought a case of Stanadyne Performance Formula and it started to sound better soon after. It took a few thousand miles for it to go away completely. My truck is mostly a daily driver and I tow a 2-ton pop-up occasionally.

Where can you buy this additive, mine is doing it too.

 

[DaveK98]

I'm with jimnance, I've been using a mix of mmo and power service after reading about it on another board (yes there are other boards). Don't really notice a difference but it's cheap insurance.



Towing my 5th wheel is about 80% of the usage the truck gets so I'm not too worried about the carbon buildup.

 

[JFielding]

I had some knocking in my '05. Put 8 ounces of MMO in the tank. The knocking went away. I now put 4 oz. in at every fillup.



Joe

 

[DGFoster]

Tommy, I'm probably gonna get jumped for posting this, but Marvel Mysterey oil is in fact a pretty strong solvent as well as lubricant. Regular use may keep the injectors clean and it's pretty reasonably priced at Wally World in the big bottles. Good Stuff. I've used it in aircraft to free stuck rings.

I was wondering when someone would mention Marvel Mystery Oil,I used it in my 2000 and after 70000 miles the injectors were clean as can be,I used some in every tank.

I used it mainly to lube the VP 44 but I think there are other benefits to using it.

I got 13,500 miles on my 04,I dont drive it much so I haven't gotten into using MMO yet but I will down the road.