Injector pump changeout

[Big_DQ]

I don't know if this should go here or in the 12 valve forum, but here goes. I am looking into putting a P7100 pump on my HO, I'm wondering if anyone has done this, or has any experience with this subject. I'm concerned about the electrical side of things, such as what effect this will have on the ECM, PCM and other computer controlled systems on the truck. Any ideas?

Don

 

[Fred Swanson]

Call Lawrence at Diesel Dynamics. He has done it. Let's just say it's expensive.

 

[Bob Wagner]

Originally posted by Fred Swanson

Call Lawrence at Diesel Dynamics. He has done it. Let's just say it's expensive.

Big_DQ when you call Lawrence make sure that you are sitting down when you hear the price

 

[Mopar-muscle]

lets just say its VERY VERY EXPENSIVE . the easier way to accomplish the task would be to take a 12 block and timing housing , install 24V pistons and a 24V head .



from what i heard the timing housing is very different and you can't bolt the 12 housing to the 24V block with out mods of some sort .



as far as electrical , all you would lose is feed back from the pump , so it would probably give you a constant check engine light . might be able to trick the feedback into thinking the VP44 is still there , but i would prefer a piece of electrical tape over the light

 

[Todd T]

he has the mechanical part covered. the question here is, what will the ECM do when he disconnects the APPS and Pump from it.



will it still feed the PCM with the sensory outputs for the instrumentation?



again will the instrumentation(PCM) still get its feed from the ECM if the ECM thinks the engine is severely suffering. (Limp Mode)



he has a 2001 HO truck and plans to convert that trucks engine over to the P7100 pump. he can handle the conversion but not the electonics.

 

[Mopar-muscle]

todd , the truck won't go into a limp mode , the P pump and the transmission do NOT rely on the PCM for the engine to run , he will need to figure out the stop solenoid so it will shut off though .





other thing i just remembered , he will need to swap the camshaft ( book puts labor time to swap the cam at 21 hrs ??), the 24V cam doesn't have the lobe for the mechanical lift pump , don't know if it has the hole and mounting boss either . there hasn't been a successful long term (??) application of an electric lift pump for the pressure needed for the P pump .



this lift pump deal does again give the nod to a converted 12V block .



DD did it with the 24V block because it was said it couldn't be done , the others that have done it used the 12V block with 24V compoments .



i have thought of doing this swap also , if i do i will start with the 12V block ...

 

[Todd T]

I agree, what I meant by limp mode, is what you said in your first reply. it will have a permanent check engine light. we know that. but will the ECM still feed the PCM the outputs of the coolant, oil, VSS, Tach and so on?



Don knows what to do for the conversion of the engine. we just have to get the electronics to still work. the ECM feeds the Chrysler PCM with those signals, but with the loss of the pump signal and idle validation and throttle position how will it behave?



will it still feed the rest, or just go into meltdown, if you will?

 

[Big_DQ]

Guys, I guess I should have added the part about having a complete 215 horse engine to pull parts from, huh? As Todd is saying does anyone know what will happen on the electrical side of this swap. I guess my question should be, is the wiring to the pump, all that's going to be affected by this swap. As to the lift pump situation, I have an electrical auxillary fuel pump which delivers 125 psi, at the injector pump, so I don't think fuel flow will be a major issue.

Don

 

[Mopar-muscle]

i can't say for sure , but when you have other problems and get a check engine light things still work . i know that hvac has a reflashed tst ecm , his check engine light is on all the time , no problems .



call diesel dynamics and ask what they did , i'm sure they will give up that info you seek .



don , as far as that auxillary pump that feeds ... 125 psi ... is that a typo ??? if not , excuse my saying ... are you nuts ???? the p pump only needs 27 psi (???)



when you finish i'll take that block so i can do my swap ...



good luck ...

 

[Big_DQ]

125psi, no typo. As for the nuts part, you might ask todd about that. The p pump only needs 27lbs, but you should see how it acts with a little more generous dose of good ol' #2. But' if you are going to try this at home, be warned. This amount of fuel is not intended for ,Shall we say stock or mildly modified, Cummins powered dodges If you will peruse my sig I think you will see why my truck likes it's fuel

 

[jjdiesel]

Call Scheid Diesel in Effingham... . they have done about a half-dozen at least, and are a lot closer than Vegas. Call and ask for Rick, he can give you the scoop.

 

[Bigsaint]

Big_DQ, why not try this if you want more... swap out those stage 3's and try the BD step 5's, I can't say enough for them and they way they perform in the ETH ( I had the BD 3's before). Our rigs are very similar, with the exception of the turbo. The only other item that I am running is the Edge EZ, piggybacked to the TST. To be honest, I very seldom even turn on the TST since I went with the 5's, way more than enough for normal driving. Unless you are trying to break 500 RWHP with the ETH, I think you would be more than statisfied. I gotta get this beast on a dyno soon, the guessing game of what I have gained is getting real old, but the seat of pants meter says about 50+ HP with the 5's over the 3's.



Scott W.

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

It's not quite as hard as suggested above. You can use the complete 24 valve engine except for the P pump, gear housing, pump gear, injection lines. You need the relays for the fuel shut down solenoid, and it is better to use a mechanical lift pump but there are fairly good electric ones out there.



Lawrence used a 2001 Ram, which is extra hard because it does not have a crank position sensor. Thus, he had to make the cam position sensor work in the P pump's gear housing. The complete ECM is still there, and it is too stupid to know that the engine can't run without an injection pump It does know that the VP44 is brain dead for some reason All the lights, gauges, speedo, and tach work fine. As the Beach Boys should have said, she's real fine, my 359 . . . especially with the P pump. His Ram has the 24 valve short block and head, and yes the block has a hole for a mechanical lift pump.



However, I can assure you that the conversion is not a bolt-on weekend project. Lawrence put some beautiful workmanship into the conversion, and it shows in the result. Of course, the P pump is not exactly out of the box, either

 

[Greg's PSD]

Hey Don,



I didnt know ya started BOMBing the Beauty now. I hope too see you and Kenny the 14th of October here in KC. Good luck with the conversion I hope it works out I guess I should put you in for 2 trucks on the dyno. Todd I think you and Dave should come on out to the dyno meet I think MarkG. and Chris W are going to show also from St Louis area. Oh well good luck with the truck Don I know for a fact you will get it figured out .



Greg

 

[BigYellowIron]

I will second in with you Greg.



I would really like to see Don and Kenny at the meet along with some other St Louis boys.



After seeing Don pull once I would really like to see that on a dyno!!!



Adam

 

[Archive]

It would be nice to see some pictures posted of a completed conversion. I would think/hope that an ISB owner commited to BOMBing enough for this modification would be an active TDR member. Some HP numbers or seat of the pants driving impressions would REALLY be icing on the cake. BTW, I wish some vendors (other that our beloved and highly esteemed transmission gurus) would willingly jump into the "fray" and educate us all.

 

[Todd T]

I will attend the Dyno day, if I have a new clutch by then. its a futile effort if the clutch cant hold whats being put out.



As for Don being nuts, I would compare him to the nutty professor



He's normal, until he gets behind the wheel of one of his trucks

 

[MikeR]

Instead of putting a P pump on a 24v,why don't you just get a Diesel Dynamics VP44 pump installed? Lawrence is making serious power with it.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Smooth Operator

Maybe if Evan Beck sees this thread he'll chime in here. He was down in Vegas last week and went for a spin in Lawrence's truck. He spent more time telling me about how wonderfully smooth and drivable the truck was than about its sheer horsepower. It is responsive and has a great torque & powerband. And the Check Engine light doesn't come on, like Joe alluded to ( I bet Lawrence pulled the lamp for it out of the dash)



Man if I had the bucks I'd do it. According to Evan, tricking the ECM was one of the easiest parts of the project.



Vaughn

 

[Mopar-muscle]

BQ , i have DD3's , a hot power edge and my truck works fine with 15psi and alot less at WOT , 125 is overkill , but hey thats your business ... i can just imagine that your fuel tank gets pretty foamy with a lo amount of fuel and 120 psi pumping back to the tank.



joe d . we called DD and were lead to believe that besides it being over a 15k price tag it was alos pretty hard , the books calls for 21hrs i believe to change out the cam ? no its not a weekend job .



as far as the DD moded VP$$ , isn't it only a 50HP increase ???