Here I am

INJECTOR UPDATE

Attention: TDR Forum Junkies
To the point: Click this link and check out the Front Page News story(ies) where we are tracking the introduction of the 2025 Ram HD trucks.

Thanks, TDR Staff

Power Wagon injectors, and off highway fuel questions

speaker size

Status
Not open for further replies.
i THOUGHT SOME OF YOU MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN THE INJECTORS i HAVE BEEN RUNNING IN MY TRUCK THE LAST FEW YEARS WITH DRAMATIC POWER INCREASES. I went down to Wentland diesel and had them set up my pump-I had recently installed the power wagon injectors and complained of a power loss. I brought them my old injectors and they told me that the aftermarket injectors I had replaced with power wagons were a 300horsepower marine injector-no wonder for the power loss since the swap. They removed the power wagons, reinstalled the marine injectors and all brass hardware, set my pump down to only 10% over factory fuel setting and adjusted the timing, idle, smoke and diaphram. Now I have the same power I used to without all the extra smoke and exhaust heat. I think that after having these two different injectors in my truck that the marine injectors are a far better way to go-more heat, but WAY MORE POWER, especially on the highway-these things come alive after 50mph! my truck ran 82mph in the 1/4 mile with the power wagon injectors, but is way faster now. My EGT's in 5th gear with 3. 53 in the pumpkin are as follows: 400 deg/2#boost @50mph, 500deg/6#boost@60mph, 550deg/10#boost@70mph, 600deg/14#boost@80mph, My to end is 95mph-EGT goes to 900degrees them settles down to around700degrees-boost is constant around 20lbs. This injector setup lets the truck pull harder through the gears and seems to allow you to have more usable throttle before finding that flat spot where you must shift up. Seems like higher RPM's to me. my figures were taken at 3000 feet @ 35 degree temperatures. When the ice and snow are off the highway (May) I will run these speeds, and get readings up here at home-5000 feet. The part # for these injectors is one higher than the power wagons. -they are a Bosch injector. By the way anyone want to buy a used set of power wagon injectors with less than 800 miles on them?
 
That's what I was planning to use in mine, since I live near Ft. Lauderdale and there are marine diesel shops all over the place!
#ad


------------------
http://coffeewithJesus. homestead.com/web1.html 89 1-ton, Amsoil System 3000 5-30,K&N air filter, cleaned-up exhaust, Dynomax straight-thru, rebuilt pump, thermostatically controlled twin 14" Permacool electric fans, intercooler), modified 518 OD transmission, Gear vendors OD controler, R-134 refrigernt, louvered front fenders, 93 aftermarket smoothie grille, new Dupont Chroma-colr black, black-and-red rubber rubstrip, black headlights; 78 35'Avion, 93 Lance 900 slide in with generator and power jacks. To see my truck, CLICK on: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1169022&a=10097213
Jesus saves!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Guys,

I'd like to add my two cents to this injector thing. The injectors mentioned that have one number different than the PW's are NOT 300 hp injectors. I had a set of these in my truck before the PW's. They are basically a similar injector to the PW's. This "one number different" injector does give about 2 psi more than the PW's. To change from the PW's to these would not really add much noticeable power. These injectors were what Cummins gave me when the head cracked on my old truck (89) but they still DID NOT run as good as the STOCK injectors in an 89-early 91 NONINTERCOOLED. I would recommend all early first gen trucks stay with your stock injectors unless you are absolutely positive of what you are getting for your truck. We do not want to have more people putting the PW's or some other injector in there trucks and then realize that it was not a good decision. I have the injectors in my truck that I feel is best for the first of the first gen's. Piers is currently testing some flavor of injector. I patiently await his results.

I saw a post earlier about buying from BIG NAME shops cause they have the support and know what is going on and can help you. (I hope I don't get flamed for this, but) Where were all the experts when I was looking for the ultimate injector for my truck?? Why did the big name shops tell us "all the first gens are just alike, one injector is great for all of them". I think alot of times the big shops are wanting to serve the guys with the new trucks and pockets full of money. They think, hell these trucks are old, just give the guy an injector and he'll go away.
That don't cut it with me.
My point is this, get with someone you can trust and who will work with you. Be honest about your power gains (cause you may only be fooling yourself). In my opinion if you have to ask yourself, when you floor it, "Is it much better than it was?? Well I think it is". Then the change probably wasn't worth the phone call you made to order the parts.

I think guys with the first of the first of the first gen's need to hold off on buying injectors. I would highly recommend the PW's or the "one number different" injectors for the factory intercooled trucks. Guys, I am no expert by far, but I do not claim to be. I can tell you we've owned one of the originals for 11 years and have tweaked it and several local guys here come to see us for there performance needs on the first gen trucks. I never thought of it as a business, more of a hobby.

Please email me with specific questions or concerns.

If I have offended someone, I am sorry, but I do not like things to be misrepresented. I do not fault the author of the post, but someone is trying to pull the wool over his eyes. I am not saying his injectors are not good. It sounds like he is pleased with them. It doesn't matter what they are called PW's, 300hp, Ol Blue Specials, "one number different", if you like them then enjoy it.
I do appreciate everyone for sharing information.

Bomb away!!!

later
Don




------------------
Ol' Blue: 1989 D 250 Ice blue met. 5 spd 3. 54, 155,000, Banks stage III powerpack, 3. 5" straight exhaust, pump adjustments, "'Ol Blue Special" injectors.
1999 3500 4x4 Chassis cab Emerald green ISB 5 spd 4. 10 K&N Filter straight exhaust 9 ft flatbed WARN fenderflares,Let, 275hp injectors installed, boost and pyro gages, VA plug'n power and Practical Solutions boost module. Jacobs E brake
May buy another one in 2009!!
 
I'd like to add to what yer saying, with a little further note. Few people were changing injectors for more HP 5 or 6 years ago, and so little research was done.

About the non-intercooled trucks... You would be right, if you said few people are doing much research work on them. And, then again, why would they? The market for them is kinda small, and because of the lack of intercooler, you can't do all that much anyway. There isn't all that much profit in selling new injectors for list or less, when you spend a few hundred or thousand trying to figure out every possible combination. In fact, there's almost none unless you sell a LOT.

I would like to point out something here: That if you use the later injectors, you can achieve excellent performance improvement if you have your pump recalibrated. The earlier (89-90) injectors, for instance, are much more prone to smoke, and replacing them with the better patterned PW or other injectors will result in improved performance and low smoke IF you calibrate your pump accordingly.

Lastly, Don, your input here is most valuable... . and obviously very good. Thanks for sharing it, and keeping the info at the forefront.
 
Don-these Bosch injectors I am running are listed for marine applications from 200-300 horsepower. Yes, I do have a factory intercooled truck, so it is set up different than the older first gen trucks. The men at the diesel injection shop are knowledgeable, this wasn't some shadetree outfit-they told me the tips, nozzles of the injectors I am using flow more fuel than the power wagons. I will find the card with the part # and post it so you can verify this. I love these injectors-I have 235,000 on my truck and over 100,000 miles on these injectors and am really pleased. I nfind a noticeable difference in the power between these and the power wagons, but this is only my opinion. I am not implying that I am getting 300hp from this setup in my truck, but I am definately higher than stock and it sure feels like more than the power wagons when I drive it. I will get this on the Dyno in January and find out what my rear wheel hp is. I am not advocating these for everyone, but my 91. 5 year truck has definately benefitted from them.
 
Great discussion guys. PW, your point is well taken and I agree with you. I am tryin to help the original trucks with my research.

Patrick, I was not implying that your guys didn't know what they were doing. I apologize if that's how you read it. i do not dispute any claims you make. I will state that the injectors you have do not enhance the performance of the pre 91. 5 trucks. i have data sheets on the injectors as well and have looked at them and according to my sheets, the injectors you have fit some of the same CPL #'s as the PW's.

As power Wagon stated with proper pump setup etc. etc. we could use the same injectors as the 91. 5-93. The problem here is that if we setup an 89 to the 93 specs and run the PW's we will lose power!!! We are looking to gain power.

I have opted to go with the hotter injectors and I am still planning on adjusting the timing to different settings and recording data on heat, smoke, power etc.

I am curious with some of the other setups what your performance is???

I see alot of boost numbers flying around. I thought I'd hear dthe other day someone was making 15 psi in 3rd gear on the floor?? I was out in town today and mashed mine off the line a time or two and it will make 21 psi in 2nd gear and then it will max the 30 psio gage in all the others. I am changing to a 50 psi gage. At the present time mine is turned down to stock settings and does not black the sky, actually I feel the smoke is not enough, but... ...

Let's keep the conversation going. Especially anyone with a pre 91. 5 that has injector mods chime in, it appears we have found the info the 91. 5-93 guys are looking for.

later
Don
 
Don-I know I'm not a pre 91. 5, but with the 14cm washegated banks turbo and my injectors I get about 20lbs boost in 2nd and 3rd and will go up to 26lbs in 4th and 5th if I mash it and stay in it. Can get constant 26lbs boost pulling a 7%grade in 5th gear w/ 1000lbs in the bed.
 
It seems like more power is possible from the pre-91. 5 trucks (without the intercooler) Is this true? Why? I thought that the base for these engines was relatively the same.
 
I do not intend to argue on the matter. It sounds like your truck is very impressive. I would make the statement that stright from the showroom the 89-90 was hotter than the 91. 5 (intercooled). This was due to the injectors and smaller turbo on the earlier trucks. A friend of mine has a 93 truck comparable to mine and he has the PW's and I have other injectors. Mine is definitely hotter. The later engine have a pump setting of 1. 25mm and the early trucks were 1. 45.

granted if we put the same turbo, injectors and pump settings then everything is equal (we have the exact same engine), I am not argueing that point at all.
Actually the 91. 5 and later engines consume less oil due to better honing processes and tighter tolerances of the piston/rings. So i would have to say that the later engines are better to start with as they also have the smaller 7mm holes for the injectors as opposed to the 9mm holes in the early trucks which were prone to cracking (know from experience).

thanks
Don
 
I have towed with these, but not reall big loads like some of the hot shot guys do. Pulled my buddies toyota landcruiser and all our hunting stuff to colorado a few times-his truck weighs about 5,000lbs unloaded. I routinely run with my lance camper-3000lbs with no problems at all. A coupple of times on the big grades at high altitudes(over7000 feet) I need to back off or downshift to keep my EGT under 1150. We were running past other diesels and gas trucks like they were parked, though. I don't think a person could run up a long 7% grade with their foot in it all the time-they would cause a meltdown-The power is there under the pedal, but even with the intercooler the temps start to climb after a few miles of boost and fuel. Now that my pump is turned down I'll try and get some more accurate readings this winter regarding EGT with the camper on.
 
This is driving me crazy, I am now finishing my rebuild on my "early" 91 Cummins, I have spent about $3000 on all new parts and machine work (I even had the Cummins balanced). EVERYTHING is new except the block,crank,rods, and head. I also had the injection rebuilt and tweaked. What is the BEST injector to put in my motor for power, MPG, will last and not damage the motor? I am going to buy a Banks intercooler, gauges, tach AFTER the jan. 1st. So lay it on the line tell me what you all out there think #ad
. I don't have a unlimited pocketbook but I want to do it RIGHT the first time. the idea behind all this work is so I don't have to screw around with it for 500K miles or better. Also Don the cam, and pistons of a intercooled Cummins ARE different from a nonintercooled. The non intercooled Cummins have a HIGHER compression ratio than a intercooled motor(found that out when I ordered my pistons) #ad
.

PS I am running no muffler and hope to buy a 3 1/2" exhaust

------------------
1985 DODGE 1 ton Crew Cab(imported from California with no rust) W/8' box converted to 4X4(wasn't that hard to do!) in 1999,converted to a 1991 Cummins Turbo diesel & 5 speed Getrag in 2000(wife can't drive a stick #ad
. 4:10 gears, limited slip rear end, 205 transfer case, 16" Goodyear GSA Wranglers and LE Package and a Sony CD Stereo. A one of a kind truck(Wish Dodge would build a new Crew Cab in 1 ton. Last year for the Crew Cab was 1985)If you want to know why I did all of this, 2 kids, one on the way and I can't stand Ford and Chevy. Kyle Hoover ,Fruitport, MI

[This message has been edited by CrewCabDiesel (edited 12-19-2000). ]
 
Kyle,
Did you use the higher compression pistons or the lower ones like the intercooled trucks? Just wondering, I think it would make a difference in which injectors to run.
Thanks,
Caleb

------------------
1993 LE W250 4x4 CC,Auto,3. 5's,LS. . Diamondplate,PowerWagon injectors,K&N,Egt,Boost,trans temp VDO Vision series, BD 3 1/2" Exhaust, 16cm housing,Mag Hytec Diff+ Trans pans,Transgo TFOD shift kit,Roadmaster Active Suspension.

Caleb Reese (per forum guidelines)
 
I used the NON intercooled pistons, they have not only a higher compression but also will take more heat and beating. Also note the best place I found to internal get parts for a Cummins is at Cummins ! Of course the prices are not cheap, but the quality and knowledge is there #ad
And since I knew nothing about a Cummins (except nothing beats them)before I started this rebuild, all the correct information I could get was invaluable, like most of the information I have been getting at this great web site ! So again guys(and ladies), what would you buy if you where doing what I am ?
 
After more research; The only difference between the stock early first gen injectors and the 300hp marine seems to be the opening pressure of the nozzle. (245-253 vs. 262-270) Bosch makes the same injector in both 7mm and 9mm tipped nozzles. So as far as theory goes, just take your stock early first gen injectors to a good Diesel shop and have the opening pressures raised and blueprint (all individual injectors opening at the same pressure or as close as possible) while there. No, I have not tried this. I’m to busy working on other peoples trucks! I have blueprinted injectors in the past and it does make a difference. Like the same noticeable difference before and after a valve adjustment.

On another note: Bruce Mallinson of Diesel Injection of Pittsburgh. (The MAN when it
comes to getting BIG HP out of any Cummins) Says when putting major fuel and boost to a Cummins you actually LOWER the compression to make these engines survive with much boost. I will install the ISB head gasket when and if the head is off my own first gen truck. I have seen his machines run, and it is like no other engine you have ever seen, heard or driven. And they last! I suggest everyone to go to his site www.dieselinjection.net/ and read
everything on the Cummins. Even if it does not pertain to thier particular engine model. There is a wealth of information there!



------------------
Owner: Stabco Repower, The turbo housing guys. '89, CC, SB, 5sp, 3. 54, 16cm2 housing, maxed fuel, KN, Banks exh w/muffler, Horton fan clutch, Autometer liquid filled gauges, Accessory tach option, 100% Dyna-Mat, Borgeson steering shaft, Firestone air bags, Chrysler V-twin air comp, 2. 5" lift, Rancho Shocks, Alcoa LTS wheels, BFG 255/85/R16 MTs (33. 3")
 
So, us guys with the pre-91. 5 non-intercooled trucks won't see much gain out of
an injector swap... other than throwing in some injectors and setting the pump down?????????????
 
Joesoot,
I'm going to try the Ol' Blue Specials and a an intercooler. I am hoping to get to a dyno sometime in mid-Jan to see what kind of power I'm getting. I would like to dyno twice because I have the PW's in now but it won't be an apples to apples test because I don't have an intercooler yet.

------------------
90 W250, 5-speed, isspro gauges, 16 cm2, K&N, Borgeson shaft, JRE 3" exhaust
 
Patrick I would be interested in those used injectors. E-mail me scottb@innova.net

------------------
93 W350 White 4" stack Headache rack with Lights. Gauges 27pnds boost empty Banks quick turbo.
 
Don I don't want your patience to wear out #ad

Here is an update on what's going on.
Justin Mason is coming up on January 5th with his 89 Cummins. He is currently running the PW injectors. We will dyno the truck as is, then install stock injectors & dyno, then install the Lucas/Delphi/Prince of darkness injectors & dyno.
Don for your info these injectors flow more fuel than the infamous 370 Diamonds & a lot more than the ISB 275 injector that you currently run in your 24 valve truck, probably why your old truck feels a lot more peppy than your new one #ad


------------------
Piers, BD engine R&D
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top