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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Injectors 101

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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) no power

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Turbo Tim 1

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You always see threads with someone talking about xyz injectors and how great they are and then someone says no, mine are better. Well, how about some education, what are edm's? Who has them? What's the difference between say DD II's and bullydog stage II's? How many holes in stock injectors and what about the others? Whose give better fuel mileage? Whose make the least smoke for the power? I am looking into the 2's or 3's for myself but lets cover the whole range for others that may want to know. What is available and what are the pros and cons. I don't want this to be an injector war but I want it to be informative. Thanks
 
injectors

I wish I had the EDM's:{ Give Rip Rook a E-Mail he'll give you the BEST price. -- email address removed --
 
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Some are stock injectors that are used in different applications of the 5. 9 ie 275's(standard bosch injectors w/ bigger holes) for the 24v. 370's(marine injectors) for the 12v. The number(generally) is what HP the injectors will raise the motor too depending of the pump(160hp, 180hp or 215Hp) on the 12 valves.



Most are aftermarket with a number rating to describe the HP amount they will raise(Diesel Dynamics,DDI,II,III. . BD's I,II, III etc). There are currently two different ways. Extrude Honed or EDM. Two different process for manipulating the holes or adding more holes. Extruned honed makes the existing holes larger.



EDM is a process of Electrically burning more holes into the tip to add more horsepower and give a finer mist (better atomization) of the fuel for a more complete burn. Giving more horsepower through a more efficient burn of more fuel for less smoke. This is the newest way for manipulating injectors for more fuel flow/horsepower.
 
I'm still confused. It seems that if I want a few more horses and a bit more torque, I'd do just fine screwing in a set of 275's. Does this mean I should expect about 275 horse from the engine? How about the fuel pump and lines, will these have to be upgraded? I just ordered a boost and egt guage. What should I be looking for if I add the larger injectors? WIll I need to run about 28 lbs of boost and what egt should I be looking for. I have a 2001 HO with a 6 speed and I'm worried about taking the clutch out. What's good source for the 275's or is there something better for a little more power?



Bill
 
Factory injectors like the 275's for the 24v raise the flywheel horsepower to 275 HP from 215 HP. They are 60 HP injectors. ( This is wrong, See Keiths (smarter than me) reply below!





275's are a good first upgrade, they are smoother than a fueling box like the Edge EZ. Wastegate adjustments or disabling is beneficial though due to right now, your turbo is set to build no more than 19-20 lbs of boost, it is capable of building good boost to about 34 lbs w/ the wastegate disable. Most people build a turnbuckle with hooks on the ends to hold the lever on the wastegate closed all the time so it cannot open, thus allowing it to build higher boost.



However if you do this you'll throw a code due to over boost. In order to run higher boost. You'll have to buy a boost fooler to lie to the ECM about waht boost level you are running. So, a fueling box has this built in. It'll act as a boost fooler and also add 65 RWHP. Edge EZ can be had for about $450-500. Injectors I think are $300. Boost fooler alone $140, I think??



To make along story short, Get an Edge EZ, drive it awhile. If you think your clutch and you can handle some more. Get a set of 275's. This is where the fun begins and ends, cause if you want more horsepower you'll have to buy a better clutch.



Stock fuel lines might and might not be fine for the 275's and EZ. With a 24 v you should have boost, fuel, and EGT gauge... mandatory! It all depends on what the fuel pressure is. You'll probably need to make some changes evently, it's just how you want to pursue it. On the temp, Cummins says do not do over 1250 degrees for longer than 10 secs. Just try to keep it under this. Nothing wrong with going over alittle every now and then, but understand there are ramifications possible if you do. We have ran 1400-1500 degrees sled pulling for less than 20 seconds. We have just recently pulled the head at 175,000. Still hone marks in cylinder walls and piston look fine.



Man, my fingers are tired, you better love me man!
 
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Actually 275's (24v) and 370's (12v) are referred to due to the HP of engine they are offered in from the factory. The 370's come in the 370hp rated marine offering, and the 275's come in the 275hp rated motorhome offering. They will not raise your HP to that level.



275's in an ETC (standard output) will add about 30-32hp to the wheels, in an ETH (high output) about 40hp.



The 370's in a 12v, assuming no other mods will add roughly 100hp.
 
Thanks Keith, I was thinking the injectors alone made the difference. :confused: But now, that you mentioned it, marine version does have a different pump and cam...



We are glad you are here. We appreciate your expertise!:)
 
OK, good stuff so far, now why are EDM's better, or are they? Are they only a real big horsepower injector? Keep the info coming! Thanks guys
 
The argument for EDM's is that, due to their more efficient atomization, you can get a given amount of BHP with less smoke with the EDM's. Not having had both, I can't say that's right or wrong, but I can say that the 80 BHP (right, Keith? ;) ) DD2's are pretty smoky if I don't watch what I'm doing.



Edit: Let me amplify on my last statement. The DD2's can be smoky with the Edge EZ on position #2 if I don't watch what I'm doing. I towed our 5th wheel with the DD2's installed but with the Edge EZ's data link cable unplugged and with the EZ's MAP cables still connected - the EZ was basically functioning only as a boost fooler - and there was almost no smoke that I could detect.



Rusty
 
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Here is some info from one of the leading EDM sellers, Don~M:



1. What is EDM?

EDM or electrical discharge machining is a process using electrical current to drill or machine holes in steel and other electrically conductive metals. Using electrodes smaller than a human hair we machine precise, round, and accurate holes in the injector nozzle tip.



2. Why use the EDM process?

EDM processing does not harm or erode the internal sealing surfaces of the injector nozzle. A key part of nozzle operation is chatter and sealing. Positive sealing after the injection event has ended is important to lower emissive by-products. Positive sealing also helps in lowering exhaust gas temperatures by keeping the needle closed after the injection event has occured. Late needle opening from bounce or poor sealiing is eliminated with EDM injectors.

3. Why are smoke levels lower with EDM modified injectors?

Diesel sprays contain a population of superfine, vapor-like droplets. EDM injectors retain these characteristics. Diesel fuel is a newtonian fluid and as such resists preparation and air/fuel mixing. Additional spray holes of smaller diameter will atomize fuel into smaller droplets. This leads to enhanced low engine speed air/fuel mixing, increased power levels and reduced particulate and smoke emissions.



4. Can you explain the history of the project?

F1 Diesel began development of EDM modified injectors using CAD and CFD software to get a basic foundation on what sizes, spraying angles, and number of holes to use before we ever machined the first nozzle. Extensive computer simulation and modeling directed the begining research and the first few sets of nozzles were contract machined. Chassis dyno and road testing soon followed. The first dyno results showed an additional 70HP and 150 lb. ft. of TQ. Daily driving in the summer months showed better smoke control and low end power response.



The 24 valve injector was then added to the research and the project continued with more help from CFD software and a few local University computers ( -: Several sets were built and the 24 valve dyno and road testing began. Over 200 dyno runs using different trucks and conditions started in the spring/summer of 2002. Over 150 different designs and configurations were considered.

5. Are all EDM processed injectors the same? Are they safe?

When F1 Diesel first began EDM research we had several designs we felt would be a good starting point. After completion of the CAD drawings and computer simulation we began looking for contract shops that could perform the work. Out of the first 7 sets we paid to have done only one set was within tolerance enough to even test. Needless to say the contracting abiltiy for quality controlled EDM work was not an easy thing to find. Wildly different results from expensive EDM shops all over the country from East to West left us wondering what to do next. Finally, we settled on a quality shop and began the relationship of having them machine the nozzles to our tolerances. This eventually lead to the decision to purchase our own EDM machine with the capabiltiy to hold tolerances for this precise operation. This gives us great flexibility to make design changes, test new ideas, and never wonder if the tolerances are tight enough or not. It also lowers the cost of the injectors for the consumer.



Safety! EDM machining itself is not a dangerous process if the proper guidelines are followed. Many stock injector nozzles are actually manufactured using this process. F1 Diesel has resolved all of the safety issues with its nozzles and stands behind them 100%. We begin with a blank nozzle constructed of a special alloy steel that is heat treated and precision ground to our specifications. This gives our nozzles the durability to outlast even stock Bosch nozzles. None of the nozzles used in the EDM program are stock Bosch parts.



6. How do you rate your injector power levels?

F1 Diesel used a chassis dyno (DynoJet 248C) to measure all HP gains at the rear wheels. These gains were made at sea level using uncorrected numbers. All HP gains were made with a single turbocharger.



7. Do you build custom injectors for twin turbos, etc.

Yes,we do build custom injectors for special circumstances like twin turbos, in-line "P" pump conversions, etc. Since we do all processes in-house we can offer this service. We are currently testing and tuning a 24 valve engine using a twin turbo system that recently made over 700HP at the rear wheels using a stock VP-44 injection pump. This translates to a 1/4 mile elapsed time of 12. 03 @ 114. 5 MPH in a 4 wheel drive truck that weighs 7000 pounds.



I ran some EDM injectors from JR Adkins for a while and LOVED them.



Just remember that just because they say stage x does NOT mean they put out the same amount of fuel as another companies stage x. Many think that when they switch from an extrude honed stage 2 to a EDM stage 2, they are ment to put out the same power/smoke and are surprised to find an increase in power. Some market their EDM's on this principle for advertising reasons. :)



Andrew



NOTE: The quote above comes from THIS LINK, and spelling errors were left as they are.
 
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Good job Gap, I'll try to add some info.



Some more differences. The extrude honing process (used by DD and others) has been around longer and seems to be quite developed. The EDM (DonM and JR Adkins and more I'm sure)process is newer and not far from the true experimental stage. There have been a few injector failures of the EDM type that I'm aware. This can cause some nasty engine damage.



Factory 275's or 370's or other off-the-shelf Bosch offerings are not as closely matched as the "custom" injectors by folks like DD. An engine should run better with more closely matched injectors.



The DD3's alone won't make as much smoke as the DDUFM on stock injectors. Together I can blot out the sky with them-when trying to. BUT it's not hard to learn how NOT to smoke--once you have that option. I'm getting from 18. 5 to 21. 0 MPG depending on how I drive.



I have enough fuel now to need a bigger turbo. :D But can manage EGT/power levels easily with the multi-stage fueling box. I'd stay with 2's for a lot of heavy towing/low boost operation-where a turbo/driveline upgrade is out of the question.



HTH
 
I run DD'2s and comp on 1x5 (no pump wire) but only pull 8k 5er. Most mountaineous pull I have done is Saluda Gap in TN and had zero problems. I do have upgraded turbo and Scotty II.



I think you need to look at injectors as a system of air in, fuel in, timing, air out.



I went with DD2's because the EDM's did not have much time in service about a year ago and went with known technology.



If I did the same decision today the EDM's would have much more weight in the equation. However size them with the equation and need.



Bob Weis



Like Rusty, if the boost is < 10# in my setup the DD2's will smoke some until the combustion process air flow gets going well. My turbo could be a little large, but when the boost gets >10# this sucker will accelerate the RV combination like NOW! It is a system.
 
I have what many say is a good power result from an EZ and 275 injectors... of course i've dumped the muffler as well. 2001 ETH 6spd

331 RWHP 624 RWTorque
 
Does anyone know if there is an individual or company that modifies stock injectors to produce more hp? If so, who would I contact?



TIA,



Casey
 
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