Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Injectors are in and timing done, but ??

[JGheen]

Ok, so I got the EDM injectors in and set my timing at somewhere between 14-17*, I am not sure. Truck runs awesome now since the upgrade, just have a few questions about the changes.

After the timing was set @ 5. 6mm plunger lift(16* based on Piers chart for 215hp pump), I torqued it down and it moved somewhat, so after torqueing I checked it again and it turned out to be just under 5. 6, between 5. 4 and 5. 7 depending on where I decided TDC was. I found TDC by leaving the #1 injector out and using a "T" handle to see where the piston stops coming up. Worked pretty decent, but using that method, the piston actually spends quite a decent amount of time @ TDC and the gauge would be showing a window of . 75mm before I start to see the piston drop again. So at what point during TDC is most reliable for measuring a more accurate plunger lift? Does the actual plunger lift setting need to be at the instant the piston reaches TDC?

When I took it on the test drive it makes 38-40lbs. of boost, and EGTs surprisingly stayed between 1200-1350*F during hard 4th gear accelerations, so I am guessing the mild EGTs for the increased fuel is due to the timing advancement, but I am still not sure where it is exactly set at. The #10 plate is still full forward and I probably won't move it back any. I felt a big top end improvement and lots of smoke at the bottom end before 2100 rpms, I mean lots, couldn't believe my eyes on how much smoke was pouring out my new stacks. :-laf

So I am not sure about the timing adjustment other than it is advanced cuz my EGTs are down, but I know I am moving a lot more fuel than before, so I know I did something right.



Joe



Smoke pics soon to come!!

 

[RJPotts]

I don't think it really matters a whole lot so long as the piston is at TDC. There really isn't any way, especially with regular hand tools, to get the piston at exactly TDC, unless you have a barring tool or something that will make it stop at the exact point.

So long as its close, its good.

-R. J.

 

[KLockliear]

Use the timing pin to find TDC.

 

[JGK]

Use the dropped valve method for finding TDC. I don't think your T handle in the injection hole is accurate enough. On the other hand, you may have gotten lucky and have a good setting. Only an accurate TDC and the gauge in #1 barrel will tell.



In your other thread about timing, it was mentioned the 215 pump will rotate back when you pop the gear to reset TDC after reaching your desired lift. I've fought that. I have a way or two around it. If you choose to reset your timing, I'll fill you in on the details.



-Jay

 

[Johnstra]

Jay - I'd like to hear your secrets for keeping the 215 from moving. I'll be setting my timing in the next few days and any tips will be appreciated. I'm debating whether I want to get the special thrust washer/bearing kit mentioned in the shop manual.

-john

 

[Mokerz]

I second that, I set my timing at 17 a few months ago and have a sneaking suspition it has retarded since then. Egt's have started to go up, smoke is up and perfomace is down. It feels like it did before I advanced the timing. So what is the best way to keep that from happening? Any help is greatly apreciated.



___________

97' 4x4 5spd, 370's, #10, Turbo, etc etc etc...

 

[Fred Swanson]

That pump shaft has to be absolutely clean and dry.

 

[JGheen]

Well, when I first pulled the pump gear off, it popped off and moved the dial indicator from 5. 6mm to about 5. 45mm. Went ahead and sent timing there and when I was checking it again, I came up with lift numbers of 5. 4-5. 7 depending on where I called TDC at.

I would also be interested to know what your secret is Jay for holding the pump. When I torqued my nut back down, of course after using about 3 cans of CRC brake cleaner and light air pressure to dry it, I had my buddy hold the barring tool so the engine wouldn't turn and while I was torqueing it the reading went up to about 5. 65mm. But again when I checked it, it was all over the place depending on where I called TDC. So on that note, I am gonna wild guess that my timing is @ about 15-15. 5*.

Would you guys say that my timing has advanced due to the data numbers(low EGTs(not sure how much timing actually reduces it), more power felt pulling through top end, and smoke clearing up after 2K rpm) I was getting on my test run?

I guess I will have to find a good place to mark TDC and play around with it a little bit. Gonna have to locate a stock of those lock washers as well.



Joe

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Joe did you try using your timing pin? While the timing pin isn't always right on it's a lot more accurate than what you tried. I did your method to get in the ballpark then had someone very slowly turn the engine until the pin popped in. Once you do that mark the damper and pull the pin back out.



I mark my damper by using a center punch and scratching on both sides of the tach sensor and then anytime I want to put it at TDC I center the sensor between the scratch marks.



Vaughn

 

[JGheen]

No, I didn't even think to use the timing pin, too scared of the breaking them off stories I guess.

But another thought is even if it is too far advanced I wouldn't see the amount of smoke I am seeing and my EGTs would be WAY down, right? I guess if it is more advanced than I thought I could put a heavier fueling plate to the pump, but my #10 is full forward and has been, that should be plenty of fuel, hell, I am stumped.

 

[JGK]

OK, boys and girls, sorry for the late reply. Just got done with the day's task.



TDC: Here's what I've done: Take a piece of wire and make a pointer that will go under one of the oil pan bolts and go about half way across the damper, pointing forward. Coat hanger wire or gas welding wire works well. The advantage is its easy access down there, laying on your back. The down side is you have to have someone down there looking at it while you work top side. Optionally, put the pointer under one of the bolts that holds the crank sensor on the top of the damper. It's tougher to get it in there and bent right, but you can look at it from above.



Now, you need a barring tool. Not just the splined driver, but a handle. If you have enough extensions (about 30 inches worth) then use them with a ratchet or breaker bar. I got a 4 foot length of 1/2" steel rod, cut off about 14 or 16 inches worth, welded it on to form a 'T' handle, then welded a 1/2" universal driver to the other end. That fits in the barring tool. Route this long handle down over the alternator to the tool inserted in the hole in the bell housing adapter. Now you have a real barring tool with which you can turn the engine over both ways from in front. If you have someone watching your pointer mounted below the damper, the tool can be routed between the tie rod/drag link/axle and the helper can bar the engine over from down there.



Remove the cover from #1 and bar the engine over until you're pretty sure you're seeing about TDC (intake has closed and you've rolled up about 1/2 revolution - the compression stroke). Now back it off about 1/3 rev. Loosen the nut on the exhaust valve adjuster and spin it way back. Snug the adjuster, then screw it down about 3 to 5 turns (can't remember exactly how many, I think 5, but do 4 if you're nervous) to push the valve down into the cylinder. Now slowly crank forward until you bump the piston up against the valve. Have someone put a finger on the adjuster as they can feel the piston push on the valve. Be gentle but be firm and slow. Mark the damper exactly at the pointer. Now roll the engine backward to the bottom of the compression stroke and backward through the intake stroke. Soon you'll bump the piston into the valve again. Mark the damper again. Exactly 1/2 way in between is exactly TDC, or as close as you'll likely ever get. Scratch a perfect line this halfway point. Back the adjuster off and reset the valve lash as usual.



EDIT: When you measure the half way point between your two marks made when you bumped against the valve, make sure your splitting the short distance between the marks, not the long. Marking the half way point of the long distance will have you at the beginning of the compression stroke when you think you're at TDC. Just think about what you did. Draw a picture if you have to. It will make sense once you think about it. Ideally, you'd make your first mark on the compression stroke, let the valve back up by loosening the adjuster, roll forward on to the power stroke, screw the valve back down, the back up agains the valve again. But you'd never get the valve pushed down exaclty the same amoun the second time. But the portion of the damper that passed under your pointer when you did this would be the right area to measure the halfway point in. By rolling backward to get to the second bump-against-the-valve point, you don't have to change the valve height. You just have to measure the distance between your marks on the opposite edge of the damper.



Here's the issue with the 215 pump. When you get above about 4. 5 mm of lift, the pump cam is steep and there's lots of pressure in the plungers wanting to roll the pump back. The closer you get to 5. 6 mm (about 16*) or over, the worse it is. What we did was set the plunger to 3. 5 mm of lift, where you can pop the gear without the pump moving. Now roll the engine to TDC (gear is loose, pump not moving). Then we rolled the engine backward until about 27mm of damper surface had passed under our pointer. Then we added about 5. 5 mm more. We set the gear temporarily and rolled up to TDC. We found our lift reading to be very close to where we wanted it. After doing this about 3 times, adjusting that 5. 5 mm add-on, we had it.



Now, want a simpler way? I've done the method above about 3 times with success and gotten to within 0. 2* of where I wanted it. The following I have not done, but its much easier. A feller said loosen the injector line nuts on top of the injectors to relieve the pressure! He also suggested when rolling the engine up to our desired plunger lift, go on up over the top a bit, the back it off to before our desired setting then back up to where we want it. When the gear is popped, no movement. Hmmm...



By the way, 2 other helpful hints. To clean the pump shaft/gear area, use brake cleaner with a tiny little hose (model airplane fuel hose) and the plastic tube (get 2, one on the can, then the hose, then another tube - makes it easier to spray the shaft/gear). Spray well between the gear and shaft, moving the gear about with a bolt from the gear puller threaded into one hole as a "handle". Then use compressed air to dry out the brake cleaner (move the gear around when blow drying). Do this 3 times. No exceptions. Joe D. recommeds Mopar brake cleaner as the cleanest. It will all evaporate and won't contaminate your oil. When you do a final torque to spec, it will hold and will not slip. DON'T OVER TORQUE! Second, when snugging the gear on temporarily to set the timing (after its been popped loose initially), 4 or 5 lbs of torque is quite adequate to hold it if you've cleaned the shaft/gear area as I described. I've done it with 24 inch pounds (2 lbs).



Finally, as to holding the engine when doing the final torque on the nut. just use your handy-dandy barring tool. When the gear/shaft is cleaned properly, it won't move much at all.



Sorry for the long-winded description, but that should cover it all.



-Jay

 

[SDrake]

Thank you Jay

 

[biggy238]

Where's the "all kneel before him" smiley?