Injectors - Jammers or Machs

[Billywj]

edge makes there money off electronics not injectors

so even if they are from there

why does that make dons any better

if my jammers do what they said they would why should i spend the money for dons



probley the same as edges

 

[justinp20012500]

OK, YOU do the math! How else could you sell a nozzle like this for the price they do?

I bet Edge spends less than $100 a set for manufacturing costs of their nozzles.



Yet, somehow Edge is still making MILLIONS of dollars.

Edge's yearly revenue was growing at an exponential rate before they even introduced the jammer.



I think they make millions off of selling electronics to every Tom "Richard" and Harry...



I have done numerous sets of jammers, every set I have done has made a customer happy.

 

[McDowra]

PS: Don's injectors have better QUALITY nozzles. Expensive custom metallurgy, European sourced. Others have their roots in India or Thailand or China or whatever in an effort to cut cost.

Don M's stuff is top of the line no doubt,his product is second to none. But having sold hundreds of the jammers, I have yet to have a set returned, I would think thats pretty good quality. Don M's are custom made one at a time, jammers are custom made hundreds at a time. Just because one is good doesn't make the other bad.



Tim

 

[KLockliear]

My dd2s were good for what they were, and they are a really good size for a stock turbo/clutch/exhaust truck.

jh

Let's also mention that the DD2's that you ran are NOT the Jammers he is asking about - so it's not really apples to apples.

 

[Fishin Guide]

I ran a set of Jammers that were "comperable" to the M3s I had in my truck.



A little back story. I thought I was having an injector issue and Don said "get them to me and I'll make it right" Well, after he got the injectors back, he found no issue, but refreshed them anyway. I decided to go to a M4, so the 3's never went back in. The Jammers did, however.



These were rated the same as the M3s and were loaned to me by a friend. He was trying some new combos and felt that they were too big with his small twin setup.



I was not terribly impressed. They were better than my old DD2s, but they smoked quite a bit at idle and had a bad lope. I actually lost fuel economy with the Jammers. Power was all seat of the pants, so we will call it the same. I don't want to get into a power debate since I have no dyno numbers to back it up. Smoke was greater than the M3s and EGTs were about the same. They also spooled the charger a slight bit slower and if I slowed while in gear and reapplied the throttle, I would black out the road.



Finally, I installed the M4s. Power was incredible and very low smoke. Note I did not say for this size injector. Just low smoke period. EGTs went up somewhat, but was not a huge leap from the M3s or Jammers. My economy rebounded and I just got back from Spokane last night. 4-1/2 hours hiway driving and 22. 7 mpg. This is mostly at 70 mph and going through some elevation changes across Snoqualmie Pass. The truck was unloaded and the box and the cruise were on. AS was the A/C for the first part of the trip.



So, that was one test in my truck with both sticks. You will have to do the same to decide which is better for your use. For power, reliability and economy, I use the F1 EDMs. The first to develop the technology in performance applications and proven performance.



Going back to Hohn's point, I recently put one of Don's camshafts in. I felt that Don had the best engineered approach to my needs and he even gave me the cam specs. Good luck getting that info from any of the other "performance" diesel outlets.



F1 Diesel. No smoke, no mirrors, just satisfied customers building power and having fun.



Dave

 

[Dl5treez]

All too often people are buying the Jammer tips, installing them on stock bodies and marketing them as Jammer nozzles.



Quick clarification----the "injectors" in a B Cummins are technically called nozzles, and the ends of the nozzles are technically called tips. An injector receives low pressure fuel and through another avenue, whether it be mechanical (53/71/92/148 Detroit) or hydraulic/electronic (HEUI Navistar or Cat) creates the high pressure fuel delivery. A nozzle receives high pressure fuel and that high pressure fuel opens the pintle. Maybe a little too technical to get into, and the industry terms have overlapped and ran together, but technically 24 valves have nozzles, and nozzles have tips. Ok moving on.....



Many times people are buying those tips, simply screwing them onto a body, and reselling them as a "Jammer injector" without so much as a pop test. Can't say everyone is doing it that way but I know of enough to be aware & cautious.



If you call Bosch and ask them about the tips you'll get an earful about how dangerous it is to just screw them onto a body in a vise, like most do. There is a special jig fixture to perform this job correctly---not using it can lead to spring breakage, body fracture, insufficient torque, and excess pressure on the tips that can lead to premature breakage---a topic that has been hashed over on these boards before.



I'm not posting this as a rant, just saying that not all nozzles wearing the Jammer name are created equally. Even some of the larger, well known shops don't use the Bosch jig--but at least they take the time to balance the set before it goes out the door to their customers.



I've installed nozzles for people who say "the engine just doesn't feel right" and I reply with "maybe you should've listened when I told you to spend the $40 and have them checked at the diesel shop then". You'd be utterly amazed the number of sets I've seen with specs to either end of the spectrum, packaged as a matched/balanced set.



Even Bosch has this problem--many times I'd go through 10 or 12 nozzles for a C Cummins before I found 6 that matched well enough to go in the engine. A little anal retentive? Perhaps, but the difference between matched & balanced nozzles and just nozzles slammed in the engine is huge.



I'm not a vendor, a forum god, or a self-proclaimed expert, just a member w/ a lil diesel knowledge, take my 2 cents for what you will.



Dan-

 

[justinp20012500]

I've installed nozzles for people who say "the engine just doesn't feel right" and I reply with "maybe you should've listened when I told you to spend the $40 and have them checked at the diesel shop then". You'd be utterly amazed the number of sets I've seen with specs to either end of the spectrum, packaged as a matched/balanced set.

Dido.



I will order 10 sets of "jammer nozzles" and take all the ones that flow the most. ( I have seen them range from 40 lpm to 60 lpm and be packaged as a set of J 5's)



My set of J 5's all flow 55 lpm and have the pop set at 4550psi. YES they smoke, YES they make power.

 

[Hohn]

Don M's stuff is top of the line no doubt,his product is second to none. But having sold hundreds of the jammers, I have yet to have a set returned, I would think thats pretty good quality. Don M's are custom made one at a time, jammers are custom made hundreds at a time. Just because one is good doesn't make the other bad.



Tim

That's good to hear. I didn't say that jammers were bad. All I stated was the fact that they are sourced from different overseas locations and that the nozzle materials used are of different quality, with Don's being more expensive.



But stronger tips don't mean much if they're strong ENOUGH, do they? I mean, isn't strong enough strong enough? I'd think so. So while Don's tips may be stronger tips, what's the value of that, and is it worth paying for?



I think the main reason Don's are pricey is that ONE GUY is doing all the assembly and EDM work, and matching. That guarantees high quality, but high cost as well.



Thus, my point that the question of VALUE is a much more difficult one in my mind.



I didn't mean to imply that Jammers were not good enough, or anything less than excellent. I just meant that Don's are (imo only) better. Are his sticks worth a pricetag that's double or even TRIPLE of a Jammer? Well, it depends on what goes into your value calculation. If Don's injectors represent 100% and Jammers are 95%, I suspect most people would settle for 95% if it cost a LOT less.



I won't.

 

[Joe Mc]

Now "that's" what I'm talkin about!



Thanks Guys, I appreciate the fact that this didn't turn into anything more than spirited transfer of information. You've helped me make up my mind. I am interested in quality products, for me "that" gives the best bang for the buck. I'll most likely go with the Mach 4's. Why screw around with something small to begin with only to realize if you'd gone big you'd have been better off. Thanks for all the info - smoke, mileage, smoothness. I appreciate . . .

 

[Joe Mc]

Spoke w/Rip today and learned a good deal. I'll be going with 1. 6s & a Comp Box. Apparently the 4's are too much for my 35 and will likely end up popping a gasket. I could do Dodgezilla and on, and on, and on, but, I just want to improve the performance to make it a nice drivable truck. Almost doubling the rear wheel HP & TQ should do that. I'm not planning on doing any drag racing (well at least not too much) and so forth with it, mostly just surprising those annoying youngsters with their big shiny noisy hemorrhoids sticking out from the rear bumpers of the ricers, maybe even a Mustang every now and then



So thanks again for all the info.

 

[Fishin Guide]

Spoke w/Rip today and learned a good deal. I'll be going with 1. 6s & a Comp Box. Apparently the 4's are too much for my 35 and will likely end up popping a gasket. I could do Dodgezilla and on, and on, and on, but, I just want to improve the performance to make it a nice drivable truck. Almost doubling the rear wheel HP & TQ should do that. I'm not planning on doing any drag racing (well at least not too much) and so forth with it, mostly just surprising those annoying youngsters with their big shiny noisy hemorrhoids sticking out from the rear bumpers of the ricers, maybe even a Mustang every now and then



So thanks again for all the info.

Rip is a straight shooter and a real asset for those of us in the NW!!



Dave

 

[KERMA]

If you call Bosch and ask them about the tips you'll get an earful about how dangerous it is to just screw them onto a body in a vise, like most do. There is a special jig fixture to perform this job correctly---not using it can lead to spring breakage, body fracture, insufficient torque, and excess pressure on the tips that can lead to premature breakage---a topic that has been hashed over on these boards before.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Even Bosch has this problem--many times I'd go through 10 or 12 nozzles for a C Cummins before I found 6 that matched well enough to go in the engine. A little anal retentive? Perhaps, but the difference between matched & balanced nozzles and just nozzles slammed in the engine is huge.

Bosch has an agenda. For instance, with the VW TDI stuff, they never did release tips. THere is more money in selling reman units. They insist this is done so they can control the "quality" but really it is done to keep the margins high and keep control of the market. IOW it is a marketing strategy. What if there was an aftermarket solution that could outperform Bosch OEM in every regard, do you really think Bosch would tell you the truth? Of course not. It's not in their best interest.



The truth is that there are manufacturers (well at least one... ) with consistency and quality far better than OEM Bosch. Yes, OEM Bosch tips are inconsistent enough to require picking and adjusting. They make these things by the millions, and it has to be just "good enough". But... some manufacturers don't need to crank out the numbers like that, so they can make stuff that is correct every time right out of the box.

 

[Dl5treez]

Bosch has an agenda. For instance, with the VW TDI stuff, they never did release tips. THere is more money in selling reman units. They insist this is done so they can control the "quality" but really it is done to keep the margins high and keep control of the market. IOW it is a marketing strategy. What if there was an aftermarket solution that could outperform Bosch OEM in every regard, do you really think Bosch would tell you the truth? Of course not. It's not in their best interest.



The truth is that there are manufacturers (well at least one... ) with consistency and quality far better than OEM Bosch. Yes, OEM Bosch tips are inconsistent enough to require picking and adjusting. They make these things by the millions, and it has to be just "good enough". But... some manufacturers don't need to crank out the numbers like that, so they can make stuff that is correct every time right out of the box.

Sure, I suppose special tools aren't needed, but the one time something crappy happens one will understand why they're so highly recommended. The fact that they make the job much easier is a nice side benefit, too.



So this manufacturer with consistency and quality far better than OEM Bosch... ... ... Could it be the one you're an authorized dealer for, or is your agenda not to let that out right away for fear of showing bias? :-laf

 

[fj40charles]

Sure, I suppose special tools aren't needed, but the one time something crappy happens one will understand why they're so highly recommended. The fact that they make the job much easier is a nice side benefit, too.



So this manufacturer with consistency and quality far better than OEM Bosch... ... ... Could it be the one you're an authorized dealer for, or is your agenda not to let that out right away for fear of showing bias? :-laf

Piers Diesel Resarch makes some very nice injectors for VW TDI motors. . I will buy them when I have some funds for my 2001 Jetta TDI. Disclaimer: no affliation with any vendor.

 

[KERMA]

So this manufacturer with consistency and quality far better than OEM Bosch... ... ... Could it be the one you're an authorized dealer for, or is your agenda not to let that out right away for fear of showing bias? :-laf

Just not wanting to run afoul of moderators. I am clearly biased, as is anyone who has worked with the stuff I allude to. Let's leave it at that.