Injectors/turbo housing, or propane?

[Gary - K7GLD]

OK, I need a little input here, hopefully from some who can provide actual first hand experience...

My EARLY '91 has the stuff listed below in my sig - I currently run a maximum of nearly 20 lbs boost pulling a load up Sierra grades. Note my differential ratio, 3. 07, and also note that my truck is set to not exceed about 2500 rpm from the factory. My pyro never exceeds 1150, pre-turbo.

Banks claims that with the stuff I have added, I supposedly have about 225 hp and 525 torque - I *want* in the vicinity of 300 hp and 600 torque. The PRIMARY times this would be used, would be towing in the mountains, and it seems to ME that one of the propane vapor injection systems SHOULD do the job by itself alone - and deliver the added benefit of NOT placing additional stresses and reduced lifespan to the engine other than those occasions when the "magic button" is pushed. Whether a vapor or liquid system is advised doesn't make much difference to me, other than reasons why I might want one instead of the other...

I am slightly troubled by at least ONE report of a "backfire" from a *vapor* propane system user that did significant engine/turbo damage - is this even SLIGHTLY common with EITHER system type?

SO, comments? Propane system, or upgraded injectors and a 14 cm or so turbo housing?

If any are timid about posting here for any reason, My Email works just fine... #ad


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http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... Tweaked pump, upgraded radiator... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...

"Dura" WHAT? NOW I know where all those recycled beer cans go...

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

TTT

Sure would appreciate some input here - basically trying to decide:

Propane injection
VS
Bigger injectors and 14 cm turbo housing

Which will deliver most gains in relation to price?

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http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... Tweaked pump, upgraded radiator... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...

"Dura" WHAT? NOW I know where all those recycled beer cans go...

[This message has been edited by Gary - KJ6Q (edited 04-29-2001). ]

 

[fastmark]

I have been steered away from propane until I try the mods on my truck in all situations. I have a 91 1/2 in my crew cab. I put a 12 cm housing and 3. 5 exhaust. I will get a base line from that. I wanted to start stock but I needed exhaust from the start and did not want to waste money or repeat work. Next I will up the timing on The pump and put in bigger injectors. One thing I do not like about the propane is that it is and ongoing expense. You have to fill the bottles. I am not to crazy about the explosions, either. My bud who owns a machine shop loves nitrous and blowers. They are his best repeat customers!

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Mark Faught, 92 ext cab service truck and a 84 crew cab one ton dually with a 91 cummins and NV 4500.

 

[wxman]

I have the Powershot 2000 propane system on my VW Jetta TDI and it works great! This is a vapor system. I installed it last November and have put over 15,000 miles on the Jetta since it was installed. No problems to date. If you are conservative with your feed rate, you should have no problem with detonation or "backfiring".

Based on some top gear acceleration runs (45 mph to 65 mph), I have gotten about a 40 percent increase in torque with the propane compared to stock (between about 1600 rpm and 2300 rpm). The kit comes with different sized orifices and the boost pressure at which the propane is actuated can be adjusted. I've run as much as 3500 miles on one tank (mine is 2. 5 gallons) of propane. I also seem to be getting about a 10 percent increase in fuel mileage (diesel).

Assuming a similar increase on the Cummins, you should be able to easily hit your torque goal, at least.

I'm not necessarily trying to talk you into a propane system... just trying to give you some info on my experiences with it.

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1989 D250, 727 auto trans, 16 cm^2 turbo housing, Banks Powerpack, Turbo Shop Intercooler

1998 VW Jetta TDI, Powershot 2000 Propane System

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I've received info on the Powershot system - looks REAL nice, especially the part about propane feed being controlled by boost pressure, rather than a crude "off/on" switch. My only concern remaining is the statement/caution about NOT "holding full throttle for extended periods of time".

Since MY particular application is for increased power pulling a load in steep grades, there WILL be periods of perhaps 10 minutes at a time when it might be "pedal-to-the-metal" - and if the propane setups CAN'T be used in that manner, not much use to me...

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http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... Tweaked pump, upgraded radiator... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...

"Dura" WHAT? NOW I know where all those recycled beer cans go...

 

[MATT MAN]

My neighbor has had this system on a PSD since November. He tows large boats all over the country and has never had a problem. He says it really helps him on those annoying little hills, by keeping it in o/d. He has a chip as well, and said the EGT's went down about 50 degrees.
I think that the company is just referring to and cautioning against generating too much heat when towing for long periods of time in general and are just covering all bases. #ad

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

You hit the nail on the head Matt!

Just got the word that is EXACTLY the reason for the caution - pretty much the same as ANY power enhancement, use reasonable caution as to not ABUSE your co$tly hardware with careless application! In ANY event, for lack of any significant opposition, and the fact that the Power Shot system is reasonably priced, easily installed OR removed, totally flexible in the degree of power increase it can be set to provide, I can't see any reason NOT to go this route instead of the injector/turbo housing method.

Still open for additional discussion however...

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http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... Tweaked pump, upgraded radiator... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...

"Dura" WHAT? NOW I know where all those recycled beer cans go...

 

[Lil' Dog]

FWIW, Depending on the mileage on those stock injectors, with all the upgrades you have with some slightly better injectors you should be able to produce 300 Hp without too much trouble.
My problem is not having an intercooler so I'm topped out at 24#s boost and seriously watching the pyro. I don't know... If you have to replace the injectors like I did, the higher output injectors were the same price as stockers and I got another 6# boost.

Aux fuel systems don't appeal to me, all the extra solenoids, vapourizors, propane storage and filling. Whatever floats yer boat I guess. .

J-eh

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Jason Hoffman
Lil' Mack - 89 D250LE 5 Spd 3. 54 LSD Reg Cab. K&N,"tweaked pump", BD Injectors, Banks Pyro/Boost, 3. 5" Exst tail section straight. E&M Custom seats. Bosch H4, PIAA 80W/80W HdLites. 100W Drv,55W Fogs.
237,500 miles (380,000 Kms) 7850 Hrs. Cummins Power Booster member.
The Original Turbo Diesel

Lil' Mack Pics/March 2001

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Jason, I don't know how you use your truck, but if you do much serious towing and are concerbed about exhaust temp, you might want to consider an aftermarket intercooler like the Banks.

On another subject, I really like your custom seats, and have planned on getting some for my truck - but I'm concerned about leg room with the bucket seats due to the apparently deeper seat backs. Do you feel as though you have as much legroom with the buckets as you did with the bench seats? As it is, I run my bench seats all the way back to be most comfortable - I'm not all that tall either, about 5' 10"... About what did yours cost, if you don't mind telling...

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http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... Tweaked pump, upgraded radiator... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...

"Dura" WHAT? NOW I know where all those recycled beer cans go...

 

[Lil' Dog]

Gary,

Well fortunately, I don't do alot of heavy towing with my rig or I would get the intercooler either Bank$ or possibly a wrecking yard find from a 92-3. I can get to 1250F in a 1/4 mile stint or racing uphill on a warm day.

The seats I have do sit a little forward as the backs are right against the glass, I'm 6' and need the room also, but I got used to the seating position. Tilt wheel would help to get in and out (I don't have it). The seats also sit about 2" higher so thats another thing to note. The raised seating position seems to compensate for sitting closer to the wheel. On the longer trips, well worth the money. They have held up pretty well over the years and can be installed in any truck I buy just by ordering a new sub-frame, or make your own LOL.
(edit) Just had a thought, if the seats were too high, the framing is just 1" HSS and you could customize the frame to drop the seats about and inch or so if they are too high. But you can't go back any further, only in a CC could you stretch out.


Cost was around $1200 Cdn about 4 years ago installed with any fabric color you wanted. The fabric on mine are Chev factory fabric, but the color matched exactly with the interior panels.

J-eh

[This message has been edited by Lil' Dog (edited 05-01-2001). ]

 

[unclebilly]

Gary et al,
I think the powershot system warns against long periods of WOT because they are worried about over revving the engine. Think about it - your governor limits fuel, but if your engine is getting another vapourous fuel, it can rev past the governed RPM setting. Periodically, this should be OK but for long periods of time might be hazordous...

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91. 5 CTD 4X4, 5" Stacks, Tweaked Pump, 33" Boots (in the summer), Unlimited Slip,
Big, Bad Dodge

 

[R.E. Miller]

Gary,
This is a big issue that most people here seem to avoid talking about. I don't know much about this issue, but have heard that the "newer" engines have different pistons but am not sure. I think that valve train changes may be in the mix too but again i don't work for cummins.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Uncle... Your comment brings up a question. What internal engine differences are there between the older Cummins which were governed down around 2500 RPM, while later engines are up around 3500? Is it due to better internal mechanical balancing of rotating assemblies - or is it due to fuel delivery ability, camshaft design and drivetrain ability/need for greater useful RPM spread? Is there any mechanical restriction other than perhaps the camshaft, that limits the ability of my older Cummins to operate reliably at the SAME higher RPM the later engines do?

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http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... Tweaked pump, upgraded radiator... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...

"Dura" WHAT? NOW I know where all those recycled beer cans go...

 

[Matt S]

I believe the newer trucks come with 60lb valve springs as one difference. Piers or Joe Donnelly probably know some more diffs.

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90 W250, 5-speed, isspro gauges, 16 cm2, K&N, Borgeson shaft, JRE 3" exhaust, Banks Intercooler, Lucas injectors

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

In a conversation with Piers some time ago he mentioned that our 1st Gens are good to go up to 3000 RPM. He told me that they (BD) set the governor on them that way frequently.
**PIERS** if i got this wrong please feel free to correct me.
As to the internals I do not know other than having heard that a significant amount of weight was taken out of the engine after 93.
MHO

 

[Lil' Dog]

The really early ones('89), I was told, were kept below 2800 due to internal weight and balance issues. I won't take it over that, don't really need to.

Got all the power at the low end, unlike the V-8s out there. #ad
.

J-eh

 

[Cummnzpowr]

Gary:
i don't want to burst your bubble, but without the power wagon injectors {at least} and a good starwheel adjustment on the pump you may not even see 200 hp on the dyno... look at my signature, i make 235HP on the dynojet... it really is hard to get serious power out of these things... if you do put propane on, i wanna come by and check it out, ok?--Thanks. . Greg

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Greg's 1993 D250 4x2. . 5-speed. . extended cab. . longbed. . bright white. . tinted windows. . 4-inch stack through bed. . K&N air filter. . holes in air box. . Piers' "tweak inductioned fuel pump"... . PW injectors... 12CM housing... Isspro Pyro &Boost guages. . "The{smoking}Phantom"