Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Injectors

[guldam]

Silly question perhaps, but I am looking at Injectors for my truck, and am wondering what exactly the difference is between 40, 60, 100hp injectors, and what exactly determines the price difference between them. Is it just the size of the orifices? Or is there a sprinkle of voodoo or magic sauce that is increasingly magic?



Does it really cost that much more to make one injector over another?



GulDam

 

[cerberusiam]

I *think* its because it takes longer to make the larger ones. Can't do the size in one pass so they have to do multiple passes to form the holes correctly.



Either that or they charge more because they can.

 

[HEMI®Dart]

GulDam,



You are on the right track looking at DDP injectors. I have their 140 HP injectors and couldn't say enough positive things about them!



A strong buy at any level.

 

[Texis]

Are dumb questions OK... lol. I will be looking for injectors in the next year and need some data.



What are they rating, i. e. 140hp, 90hp, etc?

>Is this the max hp (based on fuel flow calculations) that a particular injector can produce, assuming all other components are matched?



I hear alot about the Cummins 370hp marine injectors. How would they be classified based on this "hp" rating?



Back in the diesel stone age, Detroit classified their injectors based on flow capacity, listed in CCs. I believe it was based on how many CCs of fuel the injector would deliver in 1 minute, at a particular rpm. But I have slept since it was explained to me MANY years ago.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Texis, my understanding of horse Power ratings of DDP injectors and most aftermarket ones is that 90 hp or 140 hp is the horse power gain you get over the stock injectors.

The Bosc 370 hp Marine injectors were made for a 370 hp marine engine( such as the 180 hp have 180 hp Bosc injectors and the 215 hp engines have 215 hp Bosc injectors. )

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Are dumb questions OK... lol. I will be looking for injectors in the next year and need some data.



What are they rating, i. e. 140hp, 90hp, etc?

>Is this the max hp (based on fuel flow calculations) that a particular injector can produce, assuming all other components are matched?



I hear alot about the Cummins 370hp marine injectors. How would they be classified based on this "hp" rating?



Back in the diesel stone age, Detroit classified their injectors based on flow capacity, listed in CCs. I believe it was based on how many CCs of fuel the injector would deliver in 1 minute, at a particular rpm. But I have slept since it was explained to me MANY years ago.

Texis DDP injectors are light years ahead of 370hp injectors. The DDP's burn real, real clean until you put your foot into it. Zero "haze" @ idle.



JMHO

 

[guldam]

There is so much information on injectors out there in the world. And the opinions go in any direction a fellow could imagine. 370's are the schlitz, 370's are a waste of money, 370's only smoke when get on them, 370's always haze and give you cloud of smoke... It's a enough to make a fellow crazy trying to decide what to buy. Makes me scratch my head in confusion.



I'm looking at the Stage Two DDP's. Going to 140hp DDPs is expensive. And I still don't understand why an injector with larger holes costs more than an injector with smaller holes.



Another thing I've noticed. There are a lot of folks selling reconditioned injectors with new, "customized" nozzles at the same or more than brand new DDP's. I wish there were a comparison of all these injectors and their quality, and a good explanation of why the price difference is so huge between various versions.



Humbug.

Texis DDP injectors are light years ahead of 370hp injectors. The DDP's burn real, real clean until you put your foot into it. Zero "haze" @ idle.



JMHO

 

[Texis]

The only logical reason for higher hp injectors to cost more is that they hold the pump pressure back a millisecond longer before opening... . thus injecting the fuel through larger nozzles AND at a higher pressure. This could be accomplished with a stiffer injector spring.



Results = lots more fuel going in the hole.



An injector capable of surviving higher internal pressures "could" cost more to manufacture. Not sure what the long term effect of higher internal back pressure would be on the pump? But I don't think someone who cares about making over 600hp actually expects the Cummins to live for several hundred thousand miles.



This is my theory and I'm stickin to it.

 

[GOlsen]

I noticed when I swapped my DDP 2's for DDP 4's, the 4's seemed a little bit taller. Also, not only were the holes in the tip larger, but the hole where the fuel enters the injector was also larger.

 

[HHhuntitall]

I've had both the Marine Injectors, and the DDP's, and I would go with the DDPs almost everythime. The marine's are dirty, they'll black your oil in 300 miles!! There are some out there they claim have a different spray pattern that is supposed to keep them from smoking so bad, labeled "correct" spray pattern, which I've never used... yet. I've used the DDPs and really been impressed with them, big and small. A lot of the spray pattern has to do with the piston they use in the 8. 3 and the marine engine.



As for the cost, they charge more because they believe they are more desirable, I'm sure.

 

[JesseGray]

This may be off the topic a little but...



I have been studying the Archives and watching discussions here. Everyone seems to prefer the DDP injectors. The nearest shop in my area will only use BD injectors.



Are they about equal in quality and HP gain? Should I hold out for DDPs?



Also, will you see an improvement in HP even if you have to wait to get the pump set up for the injectors?



I am in a twelve step program---CAI this month, injectors next month, and pump set up in three months, etc...

 

[Extreme1]

OK, here's the deal:



The correct marine 370's (the ones the Piers Harry spent the time to research and then match groups of 6 together that flowed close to the same amount before shipping) were the bomb years ago. Since then, everyone and his cousin's uncle's dog's neighbor has been selling "marine 370's" with predictible results. There are several different "marine 370's" made by Bosch and if you get the wrong ones, they aren't as effective as the injectors that PDR sold and even those did haze at idle and smoke more at higher loads that what DDP sells now.



As mentioned above, the piston shape has a big effect on how well these work, if the fuel isn't going into the right place (a small target), you get more smoke and less power. Back in the day, the marine 370's were the only step above the 215's for good power without killing your milage.



Why do the 140's cost more to buy? It costs more to make them! Read some of the stuff Joe D has written about the manfacturing processes to make these injector tips. According to the latest TDR, DDP extrude hones the tips to get the right size. Bigger holes take more time and I'd expect more scrap if the hone goes bad on occasion.



The tip is the part they send money and time on, they will install new tips and pop test your injectors if you send them you old ones. I got a set of DD4 tips CHEAP last year, they had a sale.



Jesse, I'm not sure what you are doing to get your pump set up. If it has a couple hundred thousand miles on it, it should get pulled and set up on a Bosch test stand by a reputable shop (there are only a handful I'd trust). If your local guy doesn't want to use anyone else's injectors it's because he's not a dealer for them. Ship your pump to a real performance shop, you will have better results. After I had my local Bosch shop (they do tractor pull pumps) set up a 180 hp pump it only made 340 on the dyno. I sent my next pump out, I even built a little crate to ship it in. It was a huge increase but it hasen't been back on the dyno yet. The pump shop estimates 425-450 and it feels like they are right.



If you are just doing a plate and RPM kit, you can do them any time. It looks like you have an auotmatic, you really need a better TC, your stocker won't let the power out. I'd ditch the K&N filter too, they let dust in. Use a BHAF, they keep the air clean and if you cut the restruction gauge into it, you can tell when it needs changing.

 

[JesseGray]

Thanks Extreme1



I will continue my research. I will look into the BHAF rather than an AFE or AIRAID.



My prospective shop is good. I have talked to two of his clients. One said that he now had so much power "he could pull an elephant through a garden hose. "

 

[RMertens]

You definately can't go wrong with 370's as far as cheap horsepower. But like the other guy said, they are a MARINE injector, therefore putting them into your truck is going to cause a slight mismatch with the piston-to-injector. Causing a haze at an idle and more black smoke under heavy throttle. Still no big deal, but your truck will smoke more, but will have lots more power. As far as the power amount a 370 puts out is alot more than you would think. I have seen a set of 370's go over 700 hp with the right turbos ect... Good luck to ya.

 

[SSage]

If you have the air, they don't smoke that bad. I have to stomp mine at low RPM in 3rd or 4th to roll the smoke. If I floor it I'll get a short burst of black smoke and then just a heavy haze. With a turn down exhaust my rear fender stays fairly clean. For $330 bucks they perform well. They will spool my larger turbo pretty good when your aggressive on the pedal and let the DTT kick down and do its thing. I see full boost quick enough, at 35 psi they just haze. . They work good enough for my old truck at a much better price. Mine came from City Diesel here in Alabama.

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Thanks Extreme1



I will continue my research. I will look into the BHAF rather than an AFE or AIRAID.



My prospective shop is good. I have talked to two of his clients. One said that he now had so much power "he could pull an elephant through a garden hose. "

Jesse, IMO The best cold air intake is the "Ice Box"



1994-2002 Dodge Cummins 5. 9L Cold Air Intake - Dodge Cummins Gen 2 Air Intake



You now have choices of filters that are non-oil type (which I don't like).



I have the Amsoil below in the Icebox



Amsoil EaAU-4510 Nanofiber Air Filter