Competition Input on where to start with a 12 valver

[Pourinthecoal]

Hey guys,



I know I'm new here but would appreciate a little help. I own seven diesels (five Fords and two Cummins) and have some extra cash saved up for a build on the ol 96 Cummins (or a 24 valver if I choose to go that way). It used to be a work truck but I'm gonna restore it and do some good stuff to the engine, using it for my weekend truck (I sold my 69 Charger). I have done searches and read around for the last few months. But a have a few imprtant questions on where to start... .



Considering money is not a determining factor, what is my starting point? The engine have approx. 250,000 miles and doesn't burn any oil, has been tight. I have decided to go to a few different comapnies for my needs - I'm thinking street. race twins, a built P7100 pump, 370 (possibly) injectors, and the usual fuel stuff attached to these addtions. My auto transmission will be built when the engine is done up. I'm not big on drugs (for the engine!) right now.



Can I be on track for my desire for a streetable 600-650 hp? Do I rebuild the engine top and bottom end? Any upgrades that should be done to the bottom end? Are stock pistons and vavle springs OK? Is a cam worth it if I'm NOT reconditioning the engine? I will firering the head of course, so maybe a total recondition should be done. Will the mileage be as miserable as my 05 Dodge or 04 Ford? What mileage can I expect for daily driving (I'm expecting the injectors will knock that down quite a bit) These are important considerations for me since I may just build up another muscle car in its place. I know newbies shouldn't be in the hot competition forum but I need some interaction before I contact companies to start helping me out so I have somewhat of a clear vision of my end product and know my stuff.



The last question I have is the extra head flow worth it to do a 24 valver instead of a 12 valve and get a kit P7100 kit from Buddha?



Any responses are greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance.



Andy

 

[Turbo Thom]

Consider, you can go to about 540 HP on stock pistons. From there, you will need to build the engine. At 500 HP, there will be few street machine's that will be able to stay with you. I would build around a stock engine. I'm drag racing a 94 2500 with 311K, retorqued the head and built around it. O ring the head, an SPS 66 turbo, injectors, very little work on the pump, exhaust, timing and you're looking at 500 HP there.



There are a number of way to go. But the bottom end is not a weak link.



. . Preston. .

 

[Forrest Nearing]

where did you pull the 540hp number out of



get a big honkin' injection pump, some big honkin' injectors (not 370's!), some big honkin' turbos, stud/o-ring the head, and take out another loan on a built transmission. it oughta be fun!

 

[Morse]

Pourinthecoal, where are you located? Just make sure you spend the money on the trans. No use to half axx it at all. . It will come back to cost you more money in the long run if you don't. Other than street, do you plan on just drag racing, or possibly pulling also?

 

[Turbo Thom]

Forest, that number came came from many dyno runs on different trucks. If you have problems gettin it, you're having a little tunning trouble.



. . Preston. .

 

[crawler]

What Forrest meant was; Since when has 540hp been the limit on stock pistons?



600hp reliable is not a problem even with stock pistons. More power is an option. I'm just throwing a number out there for arguments sake.



My oppinon is that if you have the money to do this right.



Rebuild the shortblock

Stock Crank (balanced if you choose)

Stock Rods

HD Rod Bolts

Main Studs

Girdle (optional)

Marine Pistons (slightly cut/decked)

On the Head

pocket port

valve job

o-ring

12mm studs (14mm if you choose)

Valve Springs

Turbo

SPS 66 or Silver Bullet 66

Injectors

EDM

Pump

p7100 (215hp pump will do fine, but you can go bigger if you want)

Transmission

Just do it right the first time. FULL BILLET



There are a lot of little details left but that covers the majority of it.



~Wes~

 

[Turbo Thom]

Stock pistons will take 600 HP, but reliable they well not be. You are getting to a heat range where they will not take it. Remember, you are shooting fuel into a bowl that is intended for a certain spray pattern. Just talking from what I've seen. Not an expert here, just a few melted pistons.



. . Preston. .

 

[9 Lives]

What does it take to get even near what Maddog has and keating etc... .

 

[Cummins Thunder]

What does it take to get even near what Maddog has and keating etc... .

lots of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[Turbo Thom]

Figure $4500 on parts for a block rebuild. Then $3200 for a pump, $1600 for the turbo, if you go with one. Twins will run around $5500. Then labor.



Crawler has a good parts list. Except I don't like EDM's. I prefer honed. But that's just a personal choice. I'd say somewhere in the $18,000 range. Then get a truck to put it in. Gotta have that.



. . Preston. .

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Looks like a good list to me. 600+ on a single is not big deal, I did it with a SPS 66 and bone stock 370's. I'm not totally sold on a cam but I see there advantage on the top end. BOTW, I ran a stock block, stock cam to a high of 793 and it was at 700 for nearly 2 years. Preston is right though, when I did change short blocks I had allot of piston shrinkage but no cracks.



Jim

What Forrest meant was; Since when has 540hp been the limit on stock pistons?



600hp reliable is not a problem even with stock pistons. More power is an option. I'm just throwing a number out there for arguments sake.



My oppinon is that if you have the money to do this right.



Rebuild the shortblock

Stock Crank (balanced if you choose)

Stock Rods

HD Rod Bolts

Main Studs

Girdle (optional)

Marine Pistons (slightly cut/decked)

On the Head

pocket port

valve job

o-ring

12mm studs (14mm if you choose)

Valve Springs

Turbo

SPS 66 or Silver Bullet 66

Injectors

EDM

Pump

p7100 (215hp pump will do fine, but you can go bigger if you want)

Transmission

Just do it right the first time. FULL BILLET



There are a lot of little details left but that covers the majority of it.



~Wes~

 

[RacinDuallie]

How many of those stock melted pistons were 'coated'?

 

[thekidfan]

You have alot to go on but... . I would not concider balancing the short block a option!!! Cost is almost nothing especially when you concider how much you are spending already, I would also say the same for the girdle for less then $500 you can have a balanced bottom and a girdle to support it :-laf

Good luck to ya

 

[Turbo Thom]

These had never been out of the block. The block had never been out of the mounts. So I would say the engine was stock. Fom there I won't say what was stock. But I can say what wasn't.



. . PrestonL. .

 

[9 Lives]

How extreme can you go with pistons and rods? I have a good friend that builds engines for Nextel cup racers... from what me and him have talked about he can make me just about anything when it comes to rods & pistons. Not to mention he can coat them all for heat.

 

[Pourinthecoal]

Hey guys, jus got back from work and I've got some really good info from a few of you. Appreciate it. Now here's something I need t consider, I'm located way up in northern Alberta, Canada, and its not the easiest thing to find the shop to do lot of the machining work, fire rings, etc. when it comes to Cummins mods. I hear good things abut piers, shieds, and the other big names, would it be better for me just ship an engine to them? b-d is a little closer in BC, are they able to do these things. Thanks for the list crawler, that was great, I've been shopping aroud already...



So any input on 24 Valve vs 12 valve in terms of head flow? I see one thing on the list is ported heads, is it signicantly different between the 12 and 24 for flow? Ths is of ocurse with a P7100 installed on the 24 valver.



Once again thanks so far and keep the suggestion on the engine build up. I'm guessing there's no sense NOT rebuilding the top AND bottom end?