Insight EGT information

[TimBrunett]

I am going to order an Edge CTS Insight today and I’d like to know how many of yall have got the EGT module to go with it? Can anyone comment on the installation difficulty and info gained?
An option is not installing the Insight factory probe and just using the provided EGT temps from the Insight and correlating to get a EGT figure that will be useful. Is that is a reasonable option,(?) I don’t know.

The Insight provides these EGT’s :
EGT1 DOC Inlet,
EGT2 DOC Outlet,
EGT3 DPF Outlet,
EGT4 Cat Mid Bed,
EGT5 Cat Outlet
I don’t see one that equals the Post Exh/PreTurbo probe like I have one my 2001.
But installing the Insight EGT kit will be a pain due to space is very tight over the manifold. It’s not open space like the 2001. If I can get around it I’d like to. Not to mention the EGT on a 2014 has been discussed here before and its comparative usefulness on 13 & 14 year models has been questioned.

Thanks for any input.

Tim B

 

[JLandry]

Tim,

First you'll need to decide IF you really need an accurate pre- or post-turbo EGT value. Unless you plan to modify the engine or mess with the stock programming (not a good idea while under warranty), then some might suggest you don't need to know. Just drive the truck and enjoy all that factory power... you can't hurt anything.

Rather than just going by time alone, I've been monitoring EGT1 with an Insight to help me decide when to shut the engine down after idle to cool the turbo... especially in situations such as towing uphill and immediately pulling into a highway rest stop.

Best regards,

John L.

 

[Matt_L]

I'm on the "other" side of the fence........

I say why not install a EGT probe if you've decided on getting the CTS. There is nothing like a pre-turbo reading.
With all the factory readings you'll get a general "post" turbo temperature. Nothing like on your '01.
Unless you have a total reject service department, you won't have any trouble with warranty if you have a probe installed. Plus you drive a Cummins, how many times are you going to need warranty work done anyways???

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

I am also monitoring EGT1. It is fine for shutdown. As Sag2 said on the forum, in stock form/fueling, it can't hurt itself. Even so, monitoring EGT1 vs. boost gives a reasonable approximation of pre-turbo egt and I would rather not do something that can be criticized by warranty people.

 

[cerberusiam]

Not to mention the EGT on a 2014 has been discussed here before and its comparative usefulness on 13 & 14 year models has been questioned.

The discussion always has and will center around "if things work like they should". That is not what needs monitored for. We want to monitor for the "things ain't right conditions" that are very subtle. EGT and boost are 2 things that are affected by just about everything that can wrong and has at one point. The fuel system, the EGR, the turbo, and the after treatment are all electronically controlled with the operating ranges broad enough things can flat not work right but won't always trigger derate and codes. It actually takes very little get the fuel mixture off enough a blown HG is the result. Just about everything that can cause issues will show on EGT's and boost to some degree. Only one way to catch it be familiar with it.

Post and pre-turbo assumptions are NEVER going to translate across truck and situations. Never has, never will. Too many variables, more so now, to influence the difference. The only way you can estimate the difference on your truck is run probes in both spots and note the differences under your driving style and conditions. Otherwise, useless for anything other than cool down or after treatment.

It is nice to say it can't hurt itself stock, but, that has proven to be not so true. Too many caveats to be a definitive condition. All depends on what your experience and beliefs follow whether you want to tap pre-turbo. IMO, toss that electronic nightmare and get real gauges that can be trusted. Wide variety of opinions based on experiences.

 

[gtoli]

I installed the insight and probe on the truck in my sig. Also added the turbo timer. It's nice to keep an eye on things, even on a stock truck.

 

[Doubleclutch]

Coming from the nuclear industry, about 35 years ago, the statement was made that "we will only discharge water below the threshold of monitoring" (no radiation read = less than capable of being read by the radiation monitors of the time). Well, it didn't take long before technology in the form of electronics and computers shot that statement in the part that went over the fence last. Parts Per Million was what the basis was for the initial statement, Parts Per Billion is what the electronic improvements were capable of reading. Hence,

toss that electronic nightmare and get real gauges that can be trusted. Wide variety of opinions based on experiences.

doesn't hold a lot of water (no pun) for me. Technology is a sneaky bastad, you need to keep up with it.

 

[TimBrunett]

First let me apologize for not doing a search that could have gotten me up to date on other Edge Insight discussions. This has been talked about more than I first thought and there is a lot I could have learned.

I thought about it both ways and there are valid reasons each way. All things considered I’ve ordered the Insight but without the optional EGT probe. However, I am accustomed to seeing pre-turbo EGT in my 2001, which I still have, so it’s a solid yes that I’ll get the EGT later. For now the standard features of the Insight will get me by, but the Insight is too good of gauge to not use it to its full potential. I will get the EGT later and probably for the same price.
I did not modify my 2001 engine, except for gauges, because I was always happy with its stock power and performance. And considering that with 385/850 in the 2014 I’m in over my pay grade already so I won’t be doing any mods on it, except for gauges.

As long as I have the 2001 as a spare I can do some temp observations on both see if I can extrapolate a pre-turbo temp on the 2014 based on temps available from the Insight without the pre-turbo probe.

Question: Why Dodge engineers didn’t put a pre-turbo EGT in as stock equipment? If it was not that important to them when Dodge/Cummins is carrying a 100K power train warranty then why not? I like having that kind of info but they built the truck and they’re smarter than me.

Tim B

 

[cerberusiam]

Hence, doesn't hold a lot of water (no pun) for me. Technology is a sneaky bastad, you need to keep up with it.

Interesting story, irrelevant, but interesting. Unfortunately the landscape is littered with remains of these technological advances that are supposed to be the latest and greatest. Asuming the readings are correct takes a terminal hit when some research indicates the error variance is not even close to advertised.

Plugging ANYTHING permanently into the ODB ports is just asking for trouble, and that is just the physical connection. One little glitch in the technological wonder can and will shut the truck down with no warning, probably at a critical juncture.

Given that anything read off the data bus is not true readings but what the ECU has decided they should be, just how trustworthy and valid is it? Then think about what the hardware is, sourced from the cheapest place possible with only enough testing and QA to get it off the shelf aand to the customer. Seriously, plugging something like that into a $60k truck without serious thought is borderline.

New doesn't always equal better, that is the only real truth.

As long as I have the 2001 as a spare I can do some temp observations on both see if I can extrapolate a pre-turbo temp on the 2014 based on temps available from the Insight without the pre-turbo probe.

Any info you get from the 01 won't even come close to working for a new truck. The fuel management systems are radically different and the turbos so far apart it won't cross over.

Question: Why Dodge engineers didn’t put a pre-turbo EGT in as stock equipment? If it was not that important to them when Dodge/Cummins is carrying a 100K power train warranty then why not?

Same reason as the factory gauages are not real, plausbile deniability. If the operator could actually see what was going on and track it the manufacturer is hard on the hook for warranty and repairs in case of a failure. They aren't in the business of fixing screw ups, they are in the business of selling new product. Providing useful information on the actual product operation outside of certified establishments just opens the door on a legal morass. In the current market and society, its self protection. Smarter could be one description of that.

Even the existing EGT monitors are not a good indication of engine operation. They are only useful for managing the after treatment and derating the engine when it can't. Anything useful, or incriminating depending on the persepective, has been locked down.

 

[Bob4x4]

Interesting story, irrelevant, but interesting. Unfortunately the landscape is littered with remains of these technological advances that are supposed to be the latest and greatest. Asuming the readings are correct takes a terminal hit when some research indicates the error variance is not even close to advertised.

Plugging ANYTHING permanently into the ODB ports is just asking for trouble, and that is just the physical connection. One little glitch in the technological wonder can and will shut the truck down with no warning, probably at a critical juncture.

Given that anything read off the data bus is not true readings but what the ECU has decided they should be, just how trustworthy and valid is it? Then think about what the hardware is, sourced from the cheapest place possible with only enough testing and QA to get it off the shelf aand to the customer. Seriously, plugging something like that into a $60k truck without serious thought is borderline.

New doesn't always equal better, that is the only real truth.



Any info you get from the 01 won't even come close to working for a new truck. The fuel management systems are radically different and the turbos so far apart it won't cross over.



Same reason as the factory gauages are not real, plausbile deniability. If the operator could actually see what was going on and track it the manufacturer is hard on the hook for warranty and repairs in case of a failure. They aren't in the business of fixing screw ups, they are in the business of selling new product. Providing useful information on the actual product operation outside of certified establishments just opens the door on a legal morass. In the current market and society, its self protection. Smarter could be one description of that.

Even the existing EGT monitors are not a good indication of engine operation. They are only useful for managing the after treatment and derating the engine when it can't. Anything useful, or incriminating depending on the persepective, has been locked down.

You are making it sound like you have heard many engine failures on stock trucks.I have not found that to be true.I have how ever come behind shops that brag about the tremendous gains with no down sides on modified 6.7 programming.That I have found to be untrue and the poor owner saying I only ran it on tow settings

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

Bob makes a good point above. For over a decade we have heard "I only added a little box/program and used it on the lowest setting" while looking at melted pistons or dropped valve seats, etc. My point in monitoring EGT1 on my 2013 is not so much to watch the max egt, although I will extrapolate post-turbo egt and probable pre-turbo egt from boost readings. I mainly use it to determine when it is safe to shut down. It is also nice to be able to watch other parameters.

 

[cerberusiam]

You are making it sound like you have heard many engine failures on stock trucks

Not at all, never addressed engine failures because that discussion is a rat hole. Too many factors roll into why and engine failed, stock, non-stock, or not-gonna-get-the-whole-story.

The OP's original question was about pre and post turbo and the benefits therein. The "can't hurt themselves stock" has about as much meaning as "over 1250 degrees EGT the engine will melt down" concept, it simply is not strictly true when applied to an engine that is run at or near its max potential for its configuration without tight controls. That may have been, and was, very true of a 160-200 HP mechanical fuel control engine. A modern electronic fuel controlled engine with EGR and a VGT turbo making the HP they make in an LD truck desgined to operate like a luxury car doesn't not meet the same criteria.

The POTENTIAL for issues has risen dramatically in 25 years. The POTENTIAL to see a developing isssue that COULD result in a catastrophic failure, not only the engine but the whole drive train, is ENHANCED by monitoring EGT's pre-turbo rather than post-turbo. That is alll that is being discussed or promoted.

Considering the complexity of the engine with its supporting systems and the incessant demands for green engineering, Cummins and Ram have done an excellent job of building a pretty strong reliable platform. That does NOT negate the demonstrated POTENTIAL for issues with a stock engine, just reduces the chances it will happen.

The whole concept of monitoring where it does the most good, using the best tools to do the job, and learning what to look for is considered a pro-active mind set. A little to much pro- and it starts edging into OCD but that is splitting hairs. What I find quite amusing is how almost EVERY discussion ends up back at the same point with somebody insisting that someone is advocating engine failures are this HUGE problem, not telling the whole story, blah, blah, blah. It has happened AGAIN and now the butt-hurt size-compensating ownership-troll crowd is salivating at the chance to litter ANOTHER discussion with more trivial nonsense to validate themselves. Oo.

LMAO, gotta love forum discussions. :-laf:-laf