Is our Truck Spying on us????

[tgee]

I agree. As a mechanic, this stored data helps in troubleshooting failures, like how did that big hole get there on that engine block? If I dont see 2500 rpms on your S60, with jakes on, oil psi good, coolant temp ok, I will assume a warranty issue.

 

[barbwire]

If the boxes were infallable, then I would say to use them in a court of law. However, when I had Rocky Mountain Cummins access info friom the computer on my 99, it came up with ridiculous info. For instance it said that I had run in excess of 3 million gallons of fuel through it. Ha! if it had had that much run through it, I certainly would not have afforded to drive it. There was other ironious info that came from it also, but the only thing I can remember at this time is the fuel issue. But I say that they better make it bullet proof before they start useing them( black boxes ) to hang people.

 

[tgee]

Good point. Must be a glitch somewhere. My experience is for the most part, engine ecm data is pretty reliable.

 

[RedRam401]

NewBlack Box Technology

I found this on FleetOwner.com about new black box technology.

http://fleetowner.com/information_technology/truckcom/fleet_black_box_telemetry/

With this technology they could stop us, download the information and write us tickets without witnesing our behavior. Kinda scary.

 

[tgee]

I'd like to believe that with this technology, that it wouldnt be used for that, but you never know. RRs and airlines have been using it for years. When the plane crashes, it's handy to have black box data to determine what happened, then use that data to prevent another crash.

 

[DKarvwnaris]

For instance it said that I had run in excess of 3 million gallons of fuel through it.

So you mean you want the computer to calculate the amount of fuel the pump sends back to the tank and deduct it from the actual fuel used? Don't be surprised if your rediculous fuel consumption isn't that far off. You are figuring by the amount of fuel the engine actually uses, not the amount the lift pump pushes. BIG, BIG difference.

The error on the computers is not inflallable, but its black box function that records the last entered data before an accident is hard to argue with. Speed, braking, and similar readings are hard to argue with.

 

[tgee]

All system I see determine fuel usage, not amount of fuel pumped.

 

[TRLRTRSH]

Spying trucks

Guys, I agree with just about everything said in the previous posts, Manufactures should have the capability to enforce their warranties, I have no problem with that as long as the purchaser is made aware of that capability, I have modified my truck knowing that it would affect the warranty, As the old saying goes, "I am my own warranty station" I just can't believe that some would be so willing to give up "our" precious civil rights. In this day and age when our service members are dying to protect ungrateful Iraqis (IMHO), in an attempt to "free" them, we Americans are giving up our rights a little at a time.

My feelings are if you own your truck YOU OWN ALL INFORMATION in the truck, and if one invokes the 5th amendment to the constitution that information should not be released. Commercial vehicles and others would maybe be exempt, but if it's a private vehicle that information should be off limits to law enforcement.

Accident investigators have for years been able to reconstruct crashes without this information, law enforcement likes it because it makes their job easier.

 

[Mike Ellis]

Funny how things change.



1970's "Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind"-type reports from folks were met with derision. "Hawwww, he said he seen some flashin' lights and then his truck engine quit - what a goofball hawww hawwww hawwww.. . "



Here in 2005, Onstar and elaborate tracking systems are an omnipresent reality. "Hawwww, he said he was talkin' about shootin' some gubmint official and then his truck engine quit and a bunch of flashin' lights showed up - what a goofball hawww hawww hawww.. . hey why did the truck engine just quit"



It is interesting how people react to the Onstar-type systems. Back in the 1990's, there was a big thumbfest because people with scanners could listen in on cell-phones. HORRORS! How could we let people monitor other people? Completely un-American! So the gubmint took steps to make sure that scanners were crippled in the 800 MHz band. Fast-forward a decade or so, and commercial interests are eavesdropping on the American people to an extent that makes the scanner/cellphone scenario pale in comparison.



Yet with all this surveillance, few people overall complain about it. "If I ain't breaking the law, I ain't got nothing to worry about... ", they say. Oh yeah? How would they feel about the FBI showing up at their house unannounced and rifling through their wife or daughter's underwear drawer to see if there was any evidence they had raped her sometime in the past? Shouldn't be a big deal right, because after all if they have nothing to hide... .



It seems that a large number of Americans are willing to sell their civil liberties and Constitutional protections for a few $$$ and the promise of additional safety. I just hope while they are licking the boots of their governmental and commercial rulers, they remember to stop and moisten their tongues from time to time - that boot leather can be rough on the old flapper... .

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

All this "freedom/privacy" bit as related to driving and vehicles becomes a little clearer if we realize driving is NOT a personal "right", it's a PRIVILEGE - and therefore subject to different laws than many others.



IF ya don't LIKE the authorities having access to historical data contained in your "black box", DON'T DRIVE, no one forces you to!



It may not be very convenient, but that's the legal perspective, and it won't change simply because we don't like it!

 

[ak_fleming]

Information gathered through Event Data Recorders (EDR) IMHO belongs to the owner of the vehicle. In Washington State if you make payments to the bank for your vehicle the BANK is the Legal Owner, and you are the Registered Owner, SO can the BANK give permission to download information which may cause YOU to go to Jail????

Maybe some folks deserve to spend time locked up for their stupid driving, BUT the larger issue in my opinion is the erosion of our CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.



Article [V. ] U. S. Constitution



No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or

otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment

of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval

forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of

War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the

same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor

shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against

himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without

due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for

public use, without just compensation.

I'd like to add this:



Amendment IV



The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.



Remember that the "black box" is just a recording device. It will not take into account what transpired before an accident, for example did the driver have to make hard manuvers in an effort to avoid a greater accident? Will an emergency stop brand you as a "stupid driver" and void your warantee when a mechanic reviews the information?



I'll keep my 1st Gen thank you.

 

[David Oxland]

I don't like the idea of this either:



It seems to me that if I want to have a plesant drive at varying speeds up to 90 MPH with heavy accelerations/decelerations or make competent use of a firearm,killing only my enemies or other threatening and nusiance people NO one should be watching or recording what I do. What I do is My business.



And another thing, fingerprinting, it's just plain wrong, my finger prints are personal, no one should be examining or recording them after I've touched something, and another thing... ... ... ..... surveillence cameras... ... ..... DNA... ... ... ... ... ...

 

[bpenrod]

How did we get to firearms and killing with no one watching???

 

[Mike Ellis]

Just remember to moisten those tongues good boys, the next generation of jackboots will be made from sharkskin and it is mighty rough. Oh yeah, and you fellas that are bald, please remember to wear a cap or a toupee - don't wanna blind the officials with glare off of your scalp while you are kneeling for them.



For those of you who have no problem with your driving habits being monitored, would it bother you to wear a recording sensor in a bracelet or necklace so the police could tell whether you were at the scene of a particular crime? Think how easy it would make police work! "Sarge, we found a body in a house out by I-35, looks to have been killed about 4 hours ago. " "Excellent work Jack. Get me a printout of everybody who was in that area during that time, and round them up for questioning. " And with a couple of cheap strain guages or a piezo element, they could even tell whether you had experienced sudden jolts of energy during that time (recoil from firing a gun, absorbed shock from stabbing someone, etc)



Hope it doesn't bother you TOO much to think of wearing such a device, because the path we are on right now leads inexorably to that result. But hey, if you have nothing to hide why worry? Besides, what are the odds they could really do something like that? It's not like they already have electronic ankle bracelets that let them track criminals and make sure they stay where they are supposed to :-laf :-laf :-laf

 

[frtendtech]

thank your local ambulance chasing lawyers. the manfactures put air bag moniters to protect them from law suits "i wasnt going that fast and the bag when off and pushed my

glasses into my face now i have a nasty scare. or my son was killed by an air bag and he

never speeds. then they get a hold of a lawyer to see how much money they can get!!1

thats when the moniter is pulled and the last four seconds of info is pulled,speed,time on brakes. and tps

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"How did we get to firearms and killing with no one watching???"



I read that post as a good mix of satire and sarcasm, sort of a parallel of subject material compared to the black box bit...



At least it made pretty good sense to me in that light...

 

[bpenrod]

I was thinking there was a connection then got scared that I might be out in left field! I did like the sarcasm in it.

 

[Mike Ellis]

I thought his post about shooting people was pretty good too, however it ignores one crucial aspect of the "black box" era - specifically, that people are being conditioned to accept data from such recorders as ironclad evidence of guilt.



For the most part, they are right. 99. 9999% of the time, if the black box says that Gary was doing donuts in the parking lot before the air bag fired, it will be correct. Pulling the last few seconds of parametric data before an accident is quite reasonable to determine what happened, however even that apparently ironclad evidence is incomplete. For example, it tells the police or insurance investigator what the CAR was doing, but not who was driving it. This can be quite important to your pocketbook should your car be involved in unlawful activity. Suppose you send your son down the street to buy eggs and he drag races on the way home but doesn't get caught, the insurance man might see that data some day down the road and decide to jack YOUR insurance rates on the spot. The dealer might decide to void your warranty.



The problem of "who was driving" has already been addressed by some systems used with commercial vehicles, they take video of the interior and store the last X seconds for correlation with the black box data. Private sector black boxes will inevitably take the same approach, to ensure that the assignment of Sacramental Liability is correct and complete.



As the boxes get more and more sophisticated, at some points the cops will be able to query your car and see whether you have been exceeding the speed limit over the last X months, and assign fines accordingly. For a guy like me, this poses no risk, but many of the TDR members would not get off so easily (some of you may recall my poll on speeding from a few months back, which showed that less than 12% of the TDR respondees obey the speed limits).



The question over who the data belongs to, is a valid one. Are you entitled to even SEE the data that the dealer pulls out of your truck? If they void your warranty, do they have to show you? If they DO show you, how do YOU know it is real or that it even came from your car? "Hmmm, this truck was driven at 80 mph for a few seconds, must have been passing somebody. If it was 85 mph I could void the warranty... and this particular owner is a real pain in the butt. Hmmmm... a poke here, a peek there... PRESTO! Boss, this guy's warranty needs to be voided!" Bluster, argue, moan, protest - tough luck, it's right there in black and white.



On a final note, from that previous post:

I don't like the idea of this either:



It seems to me that if I want to have a plesant drive at varying speeds up to 90 MPH with heavy accelerations/decelerations or make competent use of a firearm,killing only my enemies or other threatening and nusiance people NO one should be watching or recording what I do. What I do is My business.

Read that paragraph again, and think about the difference in having Citizen X observe your behavior by CHANCE, versus being under surveillance all the time. Before the fall of the Iron Curtain, constant monitoring of the people was something we associated with Communist and dictatorial regimes - the very idea brought up images of the KGB and Stasi. The average American would have LAUGHED at the idea of American citizens being subjected to such monitoring. We are after all CITIZENS, not SUBJECTS. And yet less than 2 decades after the fall of the Iron Curtain, it is the "free" Western societies who have VOLUNTARILY accepted the yoke of round-the-clock surveillance of the people via cameras, eavesdropping, black boxes, wire-taps, you name it. Would you be comfortable having a police officer follow you around 24/7 just to make sure you don't break the law? Well, that's what you are getting courtesy of the expansion of surveillance and monitoring - whether you like it or not.



In the United Kingdom, the people are monitored by more than a million video cameras with automatic facial recognition and tracking capabilities. Here in the USA, we have similar systems deployed in some cities, and even at sporting events. Also here at home, in the wake of 9/11 our leaders have implemented the Dept. of Homeland Security, the Patriot Act, etc to "protect" us from outside evils - "I'm sorry we have to listen to your phone calls Mr. TDR, or force you to drink your own breast milk Mrs. TDR, but the only way we can catch foreign terrorists entering our country is to really keep track of all of the folks that live here. We can't track people who VISIT here because that might hurt their feelings. Here, have a napkin... . "



If you are in favor of such controls because they might save you MONEY or make you feel a little safer, fine and dandy. But don't dismiss as crackpots those of us who have legitimate concerns about privacy and governmental oversight. Remember, this is America... or at least it used to be.

 

[DKarvwnaris]

For example, it tells the police or insurance investigator what the CAR was doing, but not who was driving it. This can be quite important to your pocketbook should your car be involved in unlawful activity. Suppose you send your son down the street to buy eggs and he drag races on the way home but doesn't get caught, the insurance man might see that data some day down the road and decide to jack YOUR insurance rates on the spot. So you mean by handing your keys to someone else, especially your son dragracing, you should not be held responsible as well? Give out your keys to drag racers alot do you? That's about the worst arguement you can make for your case. If my kid takes my car out and hits someone or runs through a red light camera, I'm liable as a parent regardless Just because they don't get caught and it shows up later doesn't make it right. Teach your kids better and watch them. The dealer might decide to void your warranty.



Dealer is not going to void your warranty for a few unrelated incidents over the cars lifetime. If you are drag racing with the car on the weekend, then you are exceeding the warranty agreement in the first place, god forbid one's actions should come back to haunt them later



The problem of "who was driving" has already been addressed by some systems used with commercial vehicles, they take video of the interior and store the last X seconds for correlation with the black box data. Private sector black boxes will inevitably take the same approach, to ensure that the assignment of Sacramental Liability is correct and complete.



This will help with car jackers, violent offenders , and other criminals who steal your vehicle to use it in a crime. Hardly a bad thing in my eyes.



As the boxes get more and more sophisticated, at some points the cops will be able to query your car and see whether you have been exceeding the speed limit over the last X months, and assign fines accordingly. For a guy like me, this poses no risk, but many of the TDR members would not get off so easily (some of you may recall my poll on speeding from a few months back, which showed that less than 12% of the TDR respondees obey the speed limits).



I am not against drving history queries, at the point the systems are that advanced, it will most likely also be tied into a GPS tracking system and overlaid onto a cit map with traffic controls, the vehicles will be able to "sense" a stop sign or traffic light as well. A drunk swerving all over the road will most likley be reported by his/her own car, which is the best witness we could ask for. So be it, drive wreckless and be tiocketed.



The question over who the data belongs to, is a valid one. Are you entitled to even SEE the data that the dealer pulls out of your truck? If they void your warranty, do they have to show you? If they DO show you, how do YOU know it is real or that it even came from your car? "Hmmm, this truck was driven at 80 mph for a few seconds, must have been passing somebody. If it was 85 mph I could void the warranty... and this particular owner is a real pain in the butt. Hmmmm... a poke here, a peek there... PRESTO! Boss, this guy's warranty needs to be voided!" Bluster, argue, moan, protest - tough luck, it's right there in black and white.



Wow, you're really into the worst case scenario huh? Dealerships are constantly labeled crooks because they have to adhere to the warranty procedures of their sponsoring manufacturer. The laws will address this when it comes up, consumer rights bills would not allow it to go unchecked.

Would you be comfortable having a police officer follow you around 24/7 just to make sure you don't break the law? Well, that's what you are getting courtesy of the expansion of surveillance and monitoring - whether you like it or not.

I would be perfectly comfortable with it. Maybe then, I could get one to act when I see a crime on progress. I'd hate to pay the taxes for my own private cop though. I doubt terrorists or gang bangers would be planning a whole lot with a nightstick up their backsides 24/7. At least with a recorder, I would see a one time cost to prove my allegations towards a drunk driver, car thief, or hit and run driver.







In the United Kingdom, the people are monitored by more than a million video cameras with automatic facial recognition and tracking capabilities. Here in the USA, we have similar systems deployed in some cities, and even at sporting events.



The facial recognition cameras are cutting the workload off of law enforcement ten fold. Finding a elusive felon is a waste of tax money, let our technology do the work, not human eyes who have to be in the position 24/7 to be effective.

If you are in favor of such controls because they might save you MONEY or make you feel a little safer, fine and dandy. But don't dismiss as crackpots those of us who have legitimate concerns about privacy and governmental oversight. Remember, this is America... or at least it used to be.

It's still America, do you think anywhere else you'd be able to write the conspiracy theory you have here? Maybe in France towards the US I guess.

 

[DennyDay]

Nothing New Here!

A number of years ago the Feds worked out a deal with Ford motor Compant to put a recorder on cars and trucks that recorded the last word of a drive just befoe he died in an accident.



In 43 of the lower 48 states the last words were "OH S-----!", In Texas, Oklahoma, Lousiana, Arkansas and Tennessee, those last words were "Hold my beer and watch this!"



Denny