Is "red" diesel harmful?

[STRALEY]

Steve H, I kinda agree with you. About 5-7 years ago before all the tax stuff was incorporated at the diesel pump, the fuel was the same. But Why is it I DO notice a difference from clear- red fuel now. I know at my distributer, as I get it delivered to farm, they add kerosene in the winter. I don't think they still do it through the summer but I can definetly tell a difference.



Jeremy

 

[Champane Flight]

Yeap

Like Steve says,there are very few refineries out there still making high sulfer diesel and it is only used rail and industrial apps. High sulfer diesel is on its way out.



The red dye used in diesel varys from company to company. We do inject at our terminal and get a visit from the IRS monthly. It is understood that these guys are spread thin and do not dip tanks very often and then mostly on semis or over the road trucks. Red dyed fuel is a total waste in my mind as it only shows you how much our goverment trusts you(and from the amount of people running it illeagaly,it ain't working). It is a pain in the bu!! to work with and has a mild corrosive. If left alone it will turn to a gummy mess. In my humble opinion it ain't worth the hassle and chance of getting caught. Very stiff fine 10,000. 00+if caught in more than one road vehicle. And according to IRS man if you are caught,you are going to have all your vehicles checked!And you can lose your tax free status... ... .



Dye will show up even if you try to dilute it down. Our equipment will detect down to 1 ppm. And that is NOT visable to the naked eye. Any concetration WILL get you checked further!



Red dye is strong stuff. We inject at a 2. 34gallon per 1000bbls or 42000 gals. This gives us a concentration of 18-21ppm... .....

 

[MidwestMotorman]

concentrations

WOW. . so running just one tankful would probably require the tank to be completely drained and cleaned to remove all traces. Otherwise a hundred tankfulls would not even dilute it out??? Even filling from a 5 gal diesel jug that had red diesel used in it would contaminate the tank for a long time... WOW.



The DNR around here uses chemical strips dipped into the fuel tank to tell if red diesel has been used. Do the fuel semi tankers get cleaned out to remove the dye once a load has been hauled? Is there any acceptable allowance in the presence of a passenger vehicle's tanks?

 

[SteveH]

No, there is no tolerance offered if red dye is found in your tank. Montana and Wyoming have spot checks every now and then and they love it when they catch an over-the-road veh with the red dye in it. As stated above, you could probably run several dozen tank fulls after using the red dye and still get caught.

As far as Turbo425's noticing a different odor in the winter blend - Yes the winter blends up here start several months earlier. The diesel slowly works its way more toward a #1 diesel so that there are fewer gelling problems, and the cloud point will drift lower. You will notice a little less mpg and also a little power loss during this conversion period and more so when the winter blend is all that is in the pump because there are fewer BTU's in the same volume of winter blend as there is in the normal #2. I suppose local distributors could add kerosene to the #2 during the winter to get the pour point down, but that would sure be an expensive way to accomplish the same thing that adding #1 diesel does.



Its really an old wive's tale that the lubricity in diesel comes from the sulfur. With the gov't regulations getting stricter and more unreasonable, sulfur in any fuel is like giving the baby epicac (sp) in its baby food. We have a tremendous project going in right now to try to get the SO2 down to below 15 parts per million which is like saying down to zero.



Bottom line: you guys that get the better mileage with the red dye diesel maybe should just add some red cake color to each tank. That is the only difference in the diesel, simply the color and the pricing at the pump with no taxes added.

Steve H

 

[Chad Sheets]

You are lowering the BTU of the fuel this way creating less heat in the combustion chamber by adding engine oil. transmission fluid/engine oil contains detergents that varnish up when they burn. Varnish does not do valves and piston rings any favors. To see what I mean, cook yourself up some transmission/engine oil in the skillet. See what is left after you get it to burn. The ash content alone is enough to carbon up your injector tips and exhaust valves and piston rings, let alone what the varnishing aspect is doing. All of this in a combustion chamber creating less heat spells trouble. The $$$ you save on red fuel will quickly get spent on fixing the aftermath of oil in the fuel tank.

 

[JohnE]

Adding trany fluid is an old excuse for having <font color=red>red</font> fuel, nothing more, nothing less. Most of the DOT nabs for using red fuel is on construction and logging companies. They have ready access to off-road fuels. The others are by random checks at the scales.



Steve;

The last I read is that <em>lubricity</em> is not directly tied to sulfur content. Rather lubricity is reduced when the sulfur is reduced.



The biggest problem I notice with Montana winter fuel is noise. My Cummins clattered most of the way through the state last December. I finally learned the only way to get straight #2 is at the truck stops and by asking for the specific pump.



I thought &quot;cracking&quot; was only required to make more gasoline from a barrel of crude. I didn't realize it means stove (diesel) fuel, too.



-John

 

[SteveH]

Good question JohnE,

In a refinery we actually do not MAKE any one product called Gasoline or Diesel or Kerosine. We use different series of towers to distill, more to crack in the presence of catalysts, towers that are strictly strippers, DEA (diethanolamine) clean ups, ammonia clean ups, sour water clean ups, and dozens of other methods to end up with each unit's products. These products are things like light coker gas oil, heavy hydrocrackate, light gas oil, heavy gas oil, C2-C4 products, heavy cat naptha, medium cycle oil, de-eth gas, slurry, heavy cycle oil along with many others coming off diffent towers. I can't think of a single product that has come from our different units that hasn't been cracked. Since they are all cracked, they contain benzene, ammonia, sulfur, and the other baddies that must be removed. Most of the remaining processes in the plant are simply cleaning up what has been cracked or selectively putting hydrogen molecules where we want them on the products.



My unit takes the medium cycle oil and hhc up to about 2200 psi, and runs it through a catalyst bed (three huge reactors). We inject pure hydrogen heated to about 900 degrees and under about 2000 pounds at this point to selectively add hydrogen molecules to the feed stocks. This is called hydrocracking, or if it isn't really active because of dead catalyst it is called hydrofining. Both do about the same thing. All traces possible of sulfur have been removed from the feed stock first, then before it comes to the hydrogen plant, and again in my unit using both the DEA and sour water washes. When the product leaves my unit it can actually be used as pure diesel. I take a quart sample of it to the lab every night for analysis.



The gasoline products are actually blends of many of the different product streams. Obviously I cannot give out what consitutes a blend make-up but it has more butane in it during the winter for cold weather starts. These blends vary according to orders, like Seattle may want 8 million gallons of a certain blend. We blend this from our tankage and then pipeline it to the Seattle market, who handles a very big part of our inventory. You guys in that area are burning our products and don't even know it. Same for down the Salt Lake way, everything between MT and Washington, Wyoming, and several other states in the NW down into the northen part of CA. Gasoline in a Holiday station may be selling their blend of our gasoline while the Exxon station across the street may be selling a slightly different blend. The diesel is pretty well the same everywhere. Its the lowest we can get it as far as sulfur goes.



Most of our pumps up here are marked #1 diesel, #2 diesel, or winter blend. Winter blend will be about 50/50. During hard winters, I run straight #1 and suffer the small mpg loss and power loss with the much lower cloud and pour points in the #1. If your truck is louder here on #2, it will also be louder from diesel in Wyoming using #2 and in Seattle and everywhere in between using the same #2 because it all comes from the Billings Refinery, and the diesel is the same for everyone.



The process of producing gasoline and diesel is quite a study, it takes years to get to the position I now hold. This explanation is very elementary but gives some of the basics that should be pretty easy to understand. I have used our products for 21 years and have not even had to clean any injectors, so I think the processes work pretty good and keep a good clean product for the public. _ didn't say perfect cause I know we aren't_ but I believe we are certainly the best the Northwest has available.

Thanks for putting up with the lengthy post. E-mail if you would like something explained that I did not do such a good job of explaining. Hope this helps clarify the "red dye" myth of it being something it isn't. Take one tank of diesel and half it. Put red dye in one half, leave the other alone. Compositions are exactly the same, one is just prettier red.

Thanks for the patience from all of you. Hope this helped.

Steve H

Steve H

 

[Champane Flight]

Signatures

There is one thing that Steve hasn't covered. The IRS comes in to every terminal out there and pull a basic sample of diesel. This sample is taken to there labs and processed. All diesels are just a tad different and have a signature. By pulling a sample from your tank they can tell exactly which refinery or terminals it came from. Maybe not on the side of the road,but on down the line. This all came about after the OK city bombing.



Go on down to the loading rack Steve and ask them if you can play with there Red dye. After about week of trying to remove it,tell me it is the same as cake dye... . I loaded up at Billings a couple of times back in the 70s. I didn't know you guys had a pipeline to Seattle?Is it run by Olympic?

 

[SteveH]

Champane Flight,

I'd rather deal with the cake dye any day, you're right, the red dye goes a very long ways. That was just an analogy as to how much good the dye can do for a diesel's power or mpg, meaning cake dye will add as much power, mileage, etc as the dye we put in the red dye off road diesel.



You mention the loading rack, I worked that for 14 months when I first hired in and really don't care to go back up there.

We have Yellowstone Pipeline that goes all the way to the Browning reservation. The Browning Reservation Tribe, along with some Hollywood actresses who didn't even know if there had been any spills or not, got the reservation portion of the pipeline closed several years ago. We now pipeline the product to the terminal on the east side of the Indian Reservation, load it on trucks and truck it to the west side of the Reservation, and then put it back in the pipeline for destination Seattle and the other NW areas. We supply most of the area, even beating out the CA refineries in this area. Now the Reservation people are whinning about loosing all that money they were getting when the oil was flowing. just can't have it both ways.

Steve H.

 

[lawdog]

I do not know any differences in performance between red dye and green. My dealer says that the red dye is exactly the same fuel as #2 diesel that they sell except it has a red dye instead of green, and it costs $0. 40 per gallon less. HOWEVER, the fines, at least in michigan are like $10. 00 per gallon or $1000. 00, whichever is more. ALSO, the federal government can walk on your property and check your tank for red fuel if they think you are using on the road, All without a Warrant. Alot of trucking companies are subject to this, ecspecially construction companies that have heavy equipment that they legitimately have off-road (red Dye) fuel for. If they are caught with the red dye fuel in their road trucks, the feds can order an audit of their books and ALL fuel exspenses for the last year or whatever they suspect, and make life a living H$$L.

 

[Andy Perreault]

Here's something I've always wondered: What if you accidentally got red fuel in your tank. No, seriously... I mean, like, what if the tanker truck driver put the wrong fuel in the wrong underground tank. You fueled up, and pulled your nozzle out at the first click-off, hung up the nozzle, and drove away with your mind on other things, not noticing the reddish drop of fuel dangling at the tip of the nozzle. Then you get pulled over (maybe even a few months down the road) and the feds take a sample that shows a positive reading on red dye, "X" many parts per million. How could you prove that you did not intentionally or knowingly put the red fuel in your tank? I don't think you could! They'd all look at you and say, "Oh, yeah, uh-huh, sure, buddy, here's your fine... "

Andy

 

[SteveH]

With all the record keeping required on the "red dye", I think there would be sufficient documentation on the screw-up at the station/bulk station that it could be easily shown that it was an honest mistake.

Steve H

 

[Andy Perreault]

Thanks, Steve. In the situation I described, more than likely, one would have no idea when or where the red fuel got pumped into the tank. Here's another situation: you loan your truck (like any of us would ever do that!) to your brother-in-law, and he fuels up with red because he doesn't know better. You would have no idea that there's red in the tank.

My point is that it would be very difficult if not impossible to prove that you were not intentionally trying to evade the road taxes.

Andy



BTW, Steve, thanks for your very informative posts.

 

[Murle]

Originally posted by Andy Perreault

Thanks, Steve. In the situation I described, more than likely, one would have no idea when or where the red fuel got pumped into the tank. Here's another situation: you loan your truck (like any of us would ever do that!) to your brother-in-law, and he fuels up with red because he doesn't know better. You would have no idea that there's red in the tank.

My point is that it would be very difficult if not impossible to prove that you were not intentionally trying to evade the road taxes.

Andy



BTW, Steve, thanks for your very informative posts.

Yea, sure. Your driving down the road and you do not see the speed limit sign showing the lower speed limit. You have no intention of speeding. Are they going to give you a ticket... . ???? Well sure they are!!!!! It is your responsabilty to know if there is red fuel in your truck or not. Wither you intentionally ment to evade the road taxes or not, you have done so. Think about it.

 

[Champane Flight]

Can do

Will get the MSDS sheet on our red dye in the morning and post it. As far as a supplier mix up or dumping a red shipment in a regular tank. It has happened many times. It is the dealers responsibility to notify all customers who may have gotten the red in their tanks,it is also their responsibility to make it right.



The fuel gauge thing sounds like a typical Dodge gauge.



Sounds like the injuns can't figure out what they want. If I was the pipeline,I would try to renogiate right of way and offer them a tax free terminal. This would give everyone a reason to visit the rez and supply a few jobs.

 

[Andy Perreault]

Originally posted by Murle





Yea, sure. Your driving down the road and you do not see the speed limit sign showing the lower speed limit. You have no intention of speeding. Are they going to give you a ticket... . ???? Well sure they are!!!!! It is your responsabilty to know if there is red fuel in your truck or not. Wither you intentionally ment to evade the road taxes or not, you have done so. Think about it.

Okay, so how many of us check to see what color the fuel is when we fuel up? To quote Champagne Flight, "It has happened many times. " What if it's so diluted that it doesn't look red to the untrained eye, but can still be detected? My point is, it's possible that someone may end up with a traceable amount red fuel in their tank and not have a way of knowing it's there and not know where it came from or when it got there. I don't think that compares to speeding. Trucks have speedometers, but they don't have "red-ometers". I just don't think it's fair that someone could get a fine for something that's beyond their control.

Andy

 

[EOliver]

My father went through the "red" diesel thing a couple months ago. We have some big trucks that my dad's cousin borrowed to haul some corn. My dad's cousin refilled the truck he borrowed with "off road" diesel from the tank on his farm. A couple of weeks later my dad was taking the truck to the shop to get the brakes checked and adjusted... and you guessed it, along side of the road there just happened to be a DOT inspection set up. He stopped, but had no idea about the fuel. When they told him there was red fuel in the tank, he had to go look because he didn't believe them. So he got a state fine right there on the spot from Nebraska. The state fine was $500 and about a month later a letter in the mail comes with the federal fine of $2500. So for one little tank of red fuel it cost $3000... now that is what I call expensive diesel!



I suggest not running dyed fuel if it is somewhere you could get caught.



Good Luck!

Eric O.

 

[Champane Flight]

It happens

This is one reason I don't like the concept of red fuel. It is NOT fool proof. The injection pac at work has to be set up to shut off injection at 250 gallons before total compartment amount. If it does not,the next truck gets some red dye in their diesel. This has happened! It is fortunate that the next compartment has a large enough amount set to dillute any dectectable trace of dye.



If you have red in your tank you can siphon it out and put in fresh green. If your station or jobber is responsible,they should supply a statement that it was their fault. And if their is any traces in your tank,jobbers note should suffice.

 

[Big_Bad_Dually]

Bad Experience with Red Diesel

Had a bad experience with my friends GM 6. 2L. Red diesel made it smoke more and gave it a little more "seat of the pants" power. Maybe someday this could help out the Dmax's.

Brian

 

[SteveH]

Hi BigBadDualy

Whatever caused the smoking problem in your friend's vehicle certainly wasn't the red dye. Again, it is inert. It simply doesn't possess the physical make-up to make the engine do anything good or anything bad. It does not have a single BTU in it. You could concentrate it a thousand times stronger than it is mixed at the bulk plant and it would still be so diluted, that is would not be a factor in the burning inside the cylinders. It just cannot cause smoke or power gains or power losses. It is simply a visual cue that doesn't change the compositional make-up any at all.

Steve H