Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) It has to be the starter!! Now what? (Pictures)

[Erniek]

Just wondering, when you say that it was terminal, what exactly were the symptoms? Did it crank over, and just not fire?? Or when you turned the key, it just did nothing??

If it cranks over and just wont fire, it's not the starter, it is probably the fuel shut off solenoid not working properly. If it doesn't even crank, or cranks real weak/slow, then it is probably the starter contacts as described on this post, or the brushes in the starter, which were briefly discussed. (Your comment about having to push the go pedal to get it started got me thinking a possible fuel shutoff solenoid problem) Just wanted to point out other possibilities because you didn't give a very clear description of what it was doing just prior to you removing the starter.



Maybe this helps?? Erik

 

[Missouri Mule]

Your starter contacts look good from what I can see.

Yes if your contact(s) were severley worn that would keep the starter from working. Usually when they are worn bad you will hear clickling noise before starter engages but when contact(s) wear out enough it won't do anything.

I would get a new starter.

 

[MacMc]

... when you say that it was terminal, what exactly were the symptoms? Did it crank over, and just not fire?? Or when you turned the key, it just did nothing??...

When the symptoms first showed up, it was cranking for much longer than normal before firing and running, and this was during a road trip, so I had to stop and restart several times over the course of that one day during refueling.



It got worse over the next week. I suspected the batteries, since I bought the truck used and had no idea of their condition. I put in two Optima Blue Tops, but the problem persisted.



Around this same time, I discovered by chance that by applying the pedal during cranking, the engine started immediately. I then checked around and was told I should have been doing this all along, something I wasn't used to with my other EFI gassers.



But the problem was still terminal in that within a week more it will not even turn over. The first few times after it was terminal, I would get a sound like it was trying to turn it, but now, even when applying a jump start, I get pretty much nothing.

 

[Missouri Mule]

MacMc, I will have to disagree with applying accelerator pedal to start as normal (My Mule starts without depressing pedal my Freightliner (24 valve) when doesn't start at first crank I apply the pedal second crank).

You should only have to apply the pedal during cold weather starts.

Applying the pedal during warm weather starts are the symptoms of low idle but could be related to lift pump/injector pump.

 

[DPyles]

MacMC, I know exactly what you are saying about using the go pedal to get it fire immediatly. I did this as well when my starter began to act up. The engine would turn over slowly and struggle to crank at all, but when you would push the pedal a little during this slow cranking it would usually fire off and you would not have to crank so long on the slow starter. Am I right on this one MacMc? If I am, I will bet anything that you have a bad brush in the motor, well probably two of them now.

Pull the two long screws out of the starting motor and remove the end cap. Best thing to do is to put it in a vise to do this.

If you are not comfortable doing this take it to a reputable starter/alternator shop and have them rebuild it. Ask them for an estimate on the rebuild first just to see if it would be worth a rebuild or not. They will more than likely have to take it apart first to gat a look at the inside, just have them call you with the diagnosis and estimate. If there is damage to the armature it will not pay to have it rebuilt. Then I would call Larry B's. Price his rebuilts with the repair cost of yours.

Dan.

 

[MacMc]

MacMC, I know exactly what you are saying about using the go pedal to get it fire immediatly. I did this as well when my starter began to act up. The engine would turn over slowly and struggle to crank at all, but when you would push the pedal a little during this slow cranking it would usually fire off and you would not have to crank so long on the slow starter. Am I right on this one MacMc? If I am, I will bet anything that you have a bad brush in the motor, well probably two of them now.

Pull the two long screws out of the starting motor and remove the end cap. Best thing to do is to put it in a vise to do this. ...

I'm assuming the two screws with the bigger heads are the longer ones? I'll go do that right now and get back to you. This forum is worth its weight in gold.

 

[MacMc]

Okay, I've now disassembled it further and here are three angles of the brushes. Comments, please.



Also, any comments about my earlier question about the steel ball that was in there somewhere?

 

[tp0d]

Wow... that is one burnt piece of toast. (your brushes wore down to nothing, and caught on fire due to the amperage) I was wondering why you had discoloration on the back half of the starter. . Now I know why.



Go buy a new starter.



I cant recommend NAPA, as I've heard bad things about their starters. If you can get a remanufactured Denso starter locally, thats the way to go. .



The ball bearing rides inside the plunger housing, but since you need a new starter, it doesnt matter.



good luck



-j



edit---



Heres a good link from ebay, a Denso starter for a good price. .



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/94-2...019QQitemZ290034065175QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

 

[DPyles]

MacMc I do believe your brushes are toast. That is a mess in there. I can see in a couple of pictures that the coiled springs that push the brushes against the commutator are well below where they would be if the brushes were good/new. That thing I am afraid should be taken completely apart and cleaned and repaired. All that black gunk ain't supposed to be there. Not sure if it is oil or what. You see in between the brushes? The thing with the lines on it is supposed to be Gold and relatively clean/shiny. You can do as I suggested or call Larry B's and get a rebuilt one.

With all that junk in it It may pay to get a rebuild from Him. Especially if it goes all the way down through the starter. A shop will clean it throughly I'm sure and it will probably be O. K. but I think Alot of people on this forum are happy with Larry's work.

Your call.

Dan.

Oh and I believe that the steel ball drops in before you put the plunger back in the hole. I am not 100% sure but it seems I remember that when I did mine. Wish I had one lying around I could take apart and let you see the difference.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

MacMc, I had the exact same thing happen to me not long ago. Had to replace the starter!



I did the same thing when it was dying. . . I'd push the pedal a bit when cranking so it would fire up right away. One thing for sure, it's amazing how slowly the engine can turn over and still fire up!



Vaughn

 

[Howard Durand]

The commutator looks pretty bad which would require more work and expense to rebuild. I think I would donate that one to the trash heap. Paying someone to rebuild anything electrical that has been hot enough to discolor the case would most likely be a losing proposition.

Piers, (PDR) is another source for starters. Not a bad price either.

 

[MacMc]

Thank you very much, guys. When I saw the brushes, I knew it looked bad, but didn't know whether or not it was worth rebuilding. Thanks for the good advice. I bought that eBay one for $118, including shipping and 2-year warranty. Can't beat that.

 

[LarryB]

Your old starter is garbage, don't even mess with it. Buy either a genuine Denso factory reman or new. Don't take a chance on the aftermarket or non-Denso reman starters. Some are OK but many are pure crap.



(OOps, too late. Hope it's a good one. Good luck!!)

 

[CumminsPower98]

What do you all know about the Napa 3 year starters? I just did a clutch and the new aftermarket flywheel from SBC has a ring gear that is . 040 wider then the OE so my starter drive gear was just making contact. I pulled the starter after detecting some in/out slop and tore it down and found the housing for the drive was quite worn and allowing it to stick out too far and make contact. Well I pulled out my recently installed solenoid parts and got one from Napa. It looks real nice on the outside and has a new aluminum housing but I have no idea how good it really is. My OE starter had 300k miles on it. Any thoughts? I have had good luck with them in other applications.



Well I see one person says Napa starters are no good. Anyone else?

 

[Joe G.]

Some are OK but many are pure crap.

Bingo! A friend bought a rebuilt. The little clip the holds the drive gear on the shaft fell out. Then the gear came off and jammed between the torque convertor and the bell houseing. It was jammed so hard we could not turn the engine. We had to pull the trans to get it out. Since there was no way to rotate the engine we have to leave the TC bolted to the flex plate. Nothing broke when the weight of the TC was only held up by the flex plate when we pull the trans. He bought a new starter from the Dodge dealer after that.

 

[Breed]

A year ago, I did the Larry b's starter repair on my starter on my 98 12 Valve, after a year the starter started to drag, I checked everything, finally I bought a new one fron NAPA with a LIFETIME guarentee for $200. 00. If this one go's out i'll just replace it. The origional starter appeared to be full of crap (greasey mud). Larry B's fix was just great! the starter just gave up prematurally (80,000 Miles) which is very unusual.

 

[CumminsPower98]

That's interesting. My Napa said they didn't sell a lifetime starter for this Diesel application. All they had were 1 year and 3 year starters.

A year ago, I did the Larry b's starter repair on my starter on my 98 12 Valve, after a year the starter started to drag, I checked everything, finally I bought a new one fron NAPA with a LIFETIME guarentee for $200. 00. If this one go's out i'll just replace it. The origional starter appeared to be full of crap (greasey mud). Larry B's fix was just great! the starter just gave up prematurally (80,000 Miles) which is very unusual.

 

[MacMc]

Well, I'll keep you posted if it develops any problems. I bought that starter from eBay. If you follow suite, be aware that I should have asked up front about shipping times. It got here yesterday, which is exactly when UPS said it would, though. Anyway, it's installed and the truck starts beautifully.



Now, I'm off to clean it thoroughly with the pressure washer and take it over to member Joe Donnely, who is going to replace my timing gear case for me. I apparently got hit with the KDP before I even bought the truck because of my ignorance. I've come a long way since then, thanks to y'all!

 

[tp0d]

Be careful what you blast with that pressure washer. If you can use regular pressure HOT water, that would be a better choice. Simple Green works great as a degreaser and wont affect any connections/etc. . oh, and let that sucker dry for a good long time before starting it up. . make sure you cover the PCM on the firewall...



good luck



-j

 

[MacMc]

Be careful what you blast with that pressure washer. ..... oh, and let that sucker dry for a good long time before starting it up. . make sure you cover the PCM on the firewall...

Thanks for the warnings; I'll keep that in mind for the next times. I've been lucky twice so far apparently. What's the PCM?