Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) It's got to be the LP!

[JyRO]

Hey guys!



We went round-n-round with what was going on with my truck (and a couple other's) with the code and the cr@pping out.



I thought my solution was tightening of the fuel filter lid (by socket wrench instead of fingers alone). Well I drove it last night and it almost quit on me. Then I started to drive it this morning to work and got about 2 miles and it cut-off again on me. I took and home and guess what I drove. A Toyota. But hey, that little bugger ALWAYS works. At this point, there's no doubt in my mind that its the LP.



I'm getting a gage from a fellow TDR guy and will check the fuel pressure to make sure for myself. Depending on the gage reading, it will probably be heading for the dealer. I'll be getting the OBD-II connector locked come tomorrow (Saturday).



The one item of information I'd like to add is a spin-off on Alan Reagan post (I can't find it or I'd put a link to it) where he described a way to repair a LP. I'm not sure if that repair is short-term or permanent. BUT! If I'm going to keep this Cummins, with this P. O. S. LP, then I think I'm going to have to begin a maintenance program on the LP. Basically I'll pull the LP every 15,000 miles (or maybe 30,000 miles) and do the repair as in Alan Reagan's post. Do you guys think this could keep a LP going for 150,000 miles or more?



- JyRO

 

[Lsfarm]

just a bad design

Jyro, just put a pusher pump in back in front of the tank, fastened to the inside of the frame rail. This will eliminate the frequent engine mounted lift pump failures.

I put three lift pumps on my truck before I got tired of the dog and pony show at the dealer every time I had to bring it in.

With the pusher pump installed the last pump has run longer than the first three combined.

If you want help I live about an hour and half north of you. The job takes about one or two hours depending on the amount of BS'ing going on I've got the Cummins pigtail, and a hoist. but YOU get to cut the fuel line and take the small but smelly fuel bath!!



Greg L. The Noise Nazi

 

[jtisdale]

You should see that gauge real soon, I sent it Monday priority.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

FOR the record, and info to any fellas in my area (Vacaville Ca. , west of Sacramento), I have made up an extra pressure guage and hose that is made to screw directly to a Shrader valve - NO mods required, a LP pressure test can be accomplished in seconds... This is not a "mail offer", but a "drive on over " offer - and I will always have it along with me on events I attend in the area...



The FACT that these LP's DO fail, and that there IS an effective cure is not news to any in this group!



Anyone who spends ANY amount of time here sees regular evidence that the stock LP's need HELP - many fail LONG before owners realize the fact, and in many cases, VP-44 damage has already occured - there's really little excuse - at least for those really interested in heading off a KNOWN problem - for NOT taking proven steps to prevent and avoid that problem!



1. GUAGES!

2. Some form of pusher pump!



A "do-it-yerself" pusher setup will cost under $100 - do it ONCE, and for the vast most part, your fuel delivery/VP-44 problems are GONE!



Why do so many still avoid what is a relatively inexpensive and easy cure/prevention?



I suppose it's viewed like other forms of disaster - it only happens to "the other guy"...

 

[JyRO]

Gary - That was some kind of helpful info Actually I have been dancing around for awhile now, hoping my LP wouldn't cr@p out. I was also hoping it wouldn't snow here in MI. Both seemed realistic.



Anyway Gary, now this is a stupid question, I know. But is a schrader valve like the valves that are on tire valve stems? And if so (or even if not), is there a schrader valve already there on my truck (Y2K)?



What I was going to do (before hearing about a schrader valve) was replace the fitting that leads into the fuel filter housing (banjo). Replace that fitting with another fitting of the same type that had the end of it drilled and tapped with another fitting on it. On the new fitting I'd put a 3/8" hose (and hose clamp) on that and route that to the gage.



Unlike some of us, I don't have much time to spare to research every possible avenue for a cure for such things. Basically my total research comes from the TDR, which I'm extremely grateful to have. The pusher pump, I only started to read about maybe 2 months ago. Yeah, sure, you guys have been talking about it for a while now. But with my free time being so little, I tend to research on an, "as needed," basis. And I haven't had any fuel delivery problems until Jan 2nd, 2003.



I'm sure there are a lot of other TDR guys here that don't have the time to just sit at home on their dead-lazy-butts (no implications there, you seem to keep busy) and build an unsinkable Ram.



Did I mention budget? I do want all the gages in the world, but I want to get 'em all at the same time. And I'm just about the pickiest person in the world, so it takes me a while to make up mind exactly what I want. But when I do, I do. Yeah so what if my LP failed. It and the injection pump are warrantied for now. I'll monitor the fuel pressure better when I get gaged. I do what I can.



- JyRO

 

[jmadden]

Gary -- how about a parts list for your Schrader compatable test unit? Ultimately I'll add a permanent gauge, but yours sounds like a useful unit to have around... and I'm not close enough to come over to use yours!



jm

 

[willyslover]

guys any refrigeration supply... auto supply that has refrigeration gauges has the hose needed for this gauge set up, and some of the tool truck guys [Snap On , Mac] also have them on board. . then just attach a pressure gauge to the male threaded end. .

the refrigeration ends are schrader also



[and yes the schrader ends are like a tire valve end]

 

[JyRO]

yeah but...

Willysolver - Thanks for the info. Will my truck already have some schrader fitting to take off from? I haven't noticed it, but I haven't been putting my head down in there too much either.



- JyRO

 

[willyslover]

Jyro. . you have a PM

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

JyRO - my comments were't especially directed at you - sorry if you took it that way - just MY frustration over the apparent failure to get the message to the masses concerning a KNOWN and well spread potential problem with the fuel systems in the VP-44 equipped trucks - and the also reluctance of MANY to not acknowledge that problem and install the relatively inexpensive and easy fix for it!



I get accused of lotsa stuff - most of it undeserved - from my perspective ) - but my my unrelenting campaign and evangelism to spread the word on pusher pumps is ONE issue I will gladly plead guilty to! I do it because I really want to spread the word, and help guys AVOID a problem they really don't need to face.



I got jumped all over, everything but called an ignorant idiot, and dumped on because *I* was unaware of some issues related to Comp boxes on ETH engines right after moving up from my old '91 - seemed EVERYONE knew about THAT - yet HERE, in the VP-44/LP issue, is one that sees nearly DAILY exposure - and SOME regulars on this board still just don't GET it!



Sorry - I got frustrated! It's sorta like seeing a building on fire, and screaming "FIRE!" - but no one leaves the building - wadda ya hafta DO go DRAG them out kicking and screaming?



I'll get down offa my soapbpx/pulpit now...



Here is a picture of my own Shrader valve hookup right at the VP-44 - other, earlier trucks have them in other locations, some don't have them at all - but those that DO, make for an easy installation:



#ad




The hoses/fittings are available thru NAPA suppliers, and often are supplied with A/C charging kits sold at places like Kragen, Grand Auto, etc - try for the ones using metal instead of plastic connectors.



I just hate to see the 24 valve engines and VP-44's continue to get a bad rap from something that has proved to be easily prevented - at least as evidenced by those of us who have made the mod...

 

[JyRO]

I must be dumb as mud...

Gary - I see your picture, it was helpful. And I think I know exactly the place your looking at (pictured). But something you said has me confused.



Oh wait I read your post wrong, I'll ask it this way. 1st of all, you added the schrader valve in your picture, there was no schrader valve to start with, right? From your picture, your schrader valve is on the inlet side to the VP-44, right? I mean that's the only logical thing, I just want confirmation. Is the inlet to the VP-44 an acceptable place to measure pressure, for the 5* (not) service guys? What I mean is, if I hook up there and drive it down to the stealers and showed them my pressure was too low, would they think that was sufficient evidence? Or would they say, "no, you gotta hook it up over here. "



Anyway, good picture, and thanks for the help. I can understand your frustration. But maybe, and this is just my opinion, other guys pursue their needs on an as needed basis, like me. And don't look for fuel delivery info on a continuous basis. As far as I'm concerned, you are one of the leading guru's on this discussion. My smart-a$$ just has a little trouble when I butt heads with your, well, frustrations we'll say.



- JyRO

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

NO problem JyRO - MOST of the damage that occurs in places like this is pure misunderstanding, or determined/stubborn intolerance and ego!



As far as *I* am concerned, the entire POINT of adding a pusher, is to insure proper fuel pressure and flow RIGHT AT the VP-44 - so it would seem to follow, that AT THE VP-44 is the BEST place to take those readings.



NOW, on my '02, DC conveniently put the Shrader test port right there - guess they felt the same way I do! earlier Dodges apparently had them back on the fuel filter - earlier ones didn't have them at all, as far as I know - but I made this big Quantum leap from a '91 to the '02 - and LOTS happened in between there that *I* don't have a clue about!



And in case I confused the Shrader issue, YES, my '02 CAME with that Shrader valve already there. Sure was nice of them...



AS far as what any given DC service department would say about owner readings taken ANYWHERE in the system - or the installation of the pusher, yer on yer own - SOME would void the LP warrant if they thought yer windshield was too dirty...

 

[jweir]

JyRO,



My Y2K had the Shrader on the injection pump, I would assume (yea, I know what they say about assumptions) that yours does too. It was at the connection from the lift pump to the injection pump. If you look at this page , the third picture down shows where I hooked up my guage, THAT is where my Shrader was. Hope this helps.



Jim

 

[JyRO]

Smooooth...

Thanks Jweir - great info. I'll be in touch with you, and checking out your page in more detail later. When I have some time. I'll check that fitting in my truck to see if I have the schrader. Mine was one of the 1st 2000's built, and one of the rare ETC/DEE's.



- JyRO

 

[jtisdale]

Jyro,

If you dont have a schrader valve up on the vp44, look back around by the fuel filter. There may be one around behind it on the incoming or out going lines. It might have a black cap on it much like the valve cap on a tire stem.

 

[JR2]

The schrader valve probably has a black plastic cap on it too... kind of hides it.



My 01 has schraders and that is where the DC guys hook up to check pressure. Another option that is not real hard is to buy one of the tapped banjo bolts from Genos or whoever and use it to install your fuel press sensor on the "out" side of the filter. That is where mine is (I have had it both places) and I get the same readings both places.



JR2

 

[LSMITH]

Tom at Black Mountain Diesel makes and sells temporary pressure gauges VERY reasonably. Get in touch with him and get one if you don't have a gauge.

 

[Bob4x4]

OK guys the schraeder valves were added on the 01 models,previous to that you had 1/8 npt plugs on the top of the fuel filter housing to test fuel pressure. Again the ac shop was the best place to get the necessary adapters(r-12 style ). for 03 the fittings are gone again. Be creative or buy a tapped banjo bolt



Bob

 

[Bob Cochran]

Gary - KJ6Q ~ I fall inot the group as JyRO said. I undestand the problem with pumps but until 100,000 miles will live with it. Mean time I have added gauges to monitor it. JyRO I think when all said and done your LP is bad. Looks like the simple stuff was not it.

 

[JyRO]

The Verdict...

The data has been analyzed (hehehe). I do have the schrader valve on the intake to the VP-44. Jtisdale's gage hooked right up to it, easy as pie (thanks a ton Jtisdale). And the verdict is: The LP is cr@p. During cranking and running, I never saw anything over about 5 psi.



Me being the genius that I am, I began to take it to the dealer because it would maintain at least 4 psi. On the way it kept drifting off until it stayed at 0 psi for a minute or so, and started cr@pping out (of course, no fuel). So I pulled it in at a bank and shut it off, hoping it would crank back up and run fine again the rest of the way, like it had done before. It didn't, I could never get any more fuel pressure. The LP wouldn't make any sound when turning the key. Its officially dead.



Now, for the genius part - The dealer service department is not open on Saturday. I was thinking it was because when I went to pick up my air filter the service and parts was open. I was thinking that was on a Saturday, but it was actually a day I had off between Christmas and New Years (it seemed like a Saturday to me).



Now my truck is sitting in the bank parking lot (Jtisdale's gage removed from the windshield, and brought home) until Monday, when I'll have to call a tow truck (on my dime) to haul it to the dealer. Ain't I genius? Oh well, if I had've waited until Monday, it still would've crapped out on me, and I would've wound up the same place I am now.



Please feel free to compliment me on my thorough thought processes, and give me any suggestions you may have on what I should do (if anything) from now. Thanks tons guys, you guys are a wealth of info and help. Especially for geniuses like me.



- JyRO