Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) It's got to be the LP!

[krs]

I fall inot the group as JyRO said. I undestand the problem with pumps but until 100,000 miles will live with it. Mean time I have added gauges to monitor it

.



This may be the wise course for anyone who wishes to keep the original warranty in effect. A pusher pump MIGHT be a solution, but it is also a no brainer easy out for a dealership to cancel or limit the engine warranty. The added pump will obviously effect the design of the fueling system. Any modification which has any effect on the factory system will be seen as a reason for the failure of the system. Sure, the law requires DC to prove that the failure is caused by the modification, but during the process of investigation the owner may well be out his (or her) truck and be unable to make any repair without the repair serving to end their warranty claim. It's called being stuck between a rock and a hard place.



Is it still true that there have been no known failures of the latest version of the lift pump? There was a thread about this but I haven't found it. If true then maybe this lift pump issue is a non issue for the latest model trucks.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I think the latest truck's LP has been improved to the point that failures are considerably rarer than previous models - but a couple have popped up here - and while a thread I started asking about failures AFTER installing a pusher have revealed NO direct responses from anyone experiencing failures, I've been told there might have been a couple, but details are pretty thin, and no one directly affected has surfaced to date.



SURE, you CAN wait to install a pusher or similar safeguard, and then trust the dealer to make a warranty LP replacement - but take JyRO for instance, how long has his LP been bad - has any damage been caused to his VP-44 that might not show NOW - but become evident AFTER the warranty expires, leaving him with the "gift" of a $1500 replacement cost at HIS expense?



If so, what looks better - a $100 pusher NOW at his expense - OR possibly a VP-44 later for $1500? Actually, THAT seems to be a pretty common scenario - the LP is found to have failed - perhaps LONG before it was discovered - and later, after the LP is replaced, the VP-44 goes, quite likely a lingering victim of the earlier LP failure... For sure, the dealer is ONLY gonna replace what he absolutely HAS to!



It's purely a gamble - insurance - and like the man sez, "you can pay a little bit now, or LOTS later"...



Everyone, once informed, has to make their own choice - and after that, no whining or crying allowed!

 

[krs]

Gary, have you missed that portion of my above post, or rather that quoted portion of Bob Cochran's post which goes

Mean time I have added gauges to monitor it

?



A monitored lift pump can not fail without the owner's awareness and that will prevent the sad case of a VP44 sucking alone until failure, since it seems clear that the demise of the lift pump is the cause of the eventual failure of the injection pump. So, an owner can see his lift failure and take action alone or through the dealership mechanism without placing his overall warranty at risk of cancellation. That warranty covers many more things than only the fueling system which, in relative terms, is inexpensive to repair in the worst case.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

NO, didn't miss that - but my response was intended as a more general statement to some who will do NOTHING, guages or otherwise, and rely purely on luck and the good nature of the dealer to take care of them - but even WITH guages alone you are still largely on your own hook in case of a LP failure - sure, you may be WELL aware it has failed - but the mere fact you KNOW is of little consolation if yer stuck somewhere out in the boonies, FAR from any competent dealer's service department when it decides to fail! Take JyRO's case - WHERE is HIS truck sitting, even as THIS is being typed?



I can do the same thing where a spare tire is concerned - I can check the 4 on the ground daily for condition and air pressure - and after all, I do have towing service, so why bother to carry a spare tire? But what about a leak or blowout back on some remote campground 100 miles from the nearest phone? Do *I* carry a good spare tire?



YOU BETCHA!



I'm ALSO very aware of the proven frequent potential of our LP's to fail - and I have THAT covered as best as reasonably possible as well!

 

[krs]

In this case we are amongst the most knowledgeable DC owners in the world without doubt, and I'd venture to say that none of them once aware would allow for a situation where such a scenario as

"is of little consolation if yer stuck somewhere out in the

boonies, FAR from any competent dealer's service department when it decides to fail!"

to arise either by the installation of a pusher at their warranty's peril or by the simpler expedient of carrying with them a spare lift pump and the equipment needed to install it. Doing the latter would not risk any action by DC and would solve the problem as well.



There are far more owners who happily tool the roads without ever a fueling failure than there are the hapless few who report here. Both DC and Cummins define the problems as rare and incidental. Be that as it may be or not, I can't help but wonder at the seeming recklessness of some owners who officiously announce that they have the solution and take modification actions which stand to refute their truck warranty in all areas including the rare and incidental subject extant. I do hope that for them the common catch phrase "I am my own warranty station" does not take on an awful meaning beyond their flamboyant intentions.

 

[Lsfarm]

Fuel level?

JYRO, how much fuel do you have in the truck?? If you are down around 1/4 tank, the lift pump has to lift the fuel an additional foot or so. If you are low, try adding a five gallon can or two to the tank, then try the 'bump the starter' trick to see if the lift pump will come alive.



Sometimes a thump with a hammer handle or screwdriver handle to the pump body will wake up the pump too.



While the later pumps are better than the earlier ones, The last two that failed on my truck were the latest version. There are several 2002 trucks that have had the lift pump fail too. It's just a bad design.



One of the two dealers I have used for warrantee like the idea of the pusher pump, the service manager knows how to think!! He got tired of replacing my lift pump and since the pusher pump install I have had no reason to visit the dealer. He said he wouldn't consider it a warrantee-killing modification.



Just trying to save you a tow bill, good luck.



Greg L. the noise nazi

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Well, I certainly can't speak for others, but when I'm presented, quite pointedly and with MANY illustrations, a potential problem and it's effective cure, *I* certainly don't wanna just sit on my hands waiting for it to happen INSTEAD of employing that cure - disasters have this BAD habit of occuring at the most inopportune times and places - again, using JyRO as a horrible example (sorry JyRO!)



How much consolation is there in crawling around under the hood of yer truck late at night, in the rain, replacing that failed lift pump with the spare you conveniently had back in the toolbox, when you COULD have simply installed it as a pusher, and avoided the problem entirely? Guages alone will only alert you when there'a a problem - they won't keep it from happening or cure it afterwards - a spare LP is a step forward, but still requires what may be VERY inconvenient replacement, rather than preventing the basic problem from happening.



As far as warranties go we each have our own priorities, family responsibilities and philosophies - mine is, I bought my truck to use NOW, *my way*, and for MY enjoyment - the stuff I install on it voided my warranty within the first few weeks, and SINCE that time, my truck has delivered far more enjoyment and satisfaction than it would have otherwise...



I refuse to become a slave to a warranty and the whims of some incompetent and uninterested service writer in some distant dealership - in addition to that, I'm 66 years old - parts of my warranty won't expire until about the time *I* do - so I'm not ABOUT to wait until then to fully enjoy my truck - and I'm willing to pay for taking that chance if need be - after all there are quite a few here who have ended up paying for "warranty service" even AFTER playing the game DC's way...



YMMV, and to each his own...

 

[krs]

"How much consolation is there in crawling around under the hood of yer truck late at night, in the rain, replacing that failed lift pump with the spare you conveniently had back in the toolbox, when you COULD have simply installed it as a pusher... . yada?

Oh, only that amount which could be derived while doing so that I still had a warranty leg to stand on in a case such as ocurred by description here very recently involving the replacement of a complete Cummins diesel engine, or... quite a lot actually.

 

[krs]

I see that you've edited your previous rather than respond, and in the edit you make some salient points, Gary. It IS your choice, and it is each owner's choice to make decisions regarding their trucks and the administration of their warranties. Why don't you leave it at that rather than continually lecturing other users even to the point of making derisive remarks about their choices as well as about them on occasion.



For some owners the decision to purchase these diesel vehicles may have been largely influenced by the relatively long engine warranty. They may need that warranty in order to afford to keep their trucks. With that in mind is it appropriate to stand up as a so called "guru" and counsel people to disregard the very assurances that the manufacturer offers and to nullify their chances of possible relief in the case of catastophic failure? I'd say not.



I may disregard my warranty, and I do, but I will not advise anyone else to take the risks that I am willing to accept.



My point is made and I'm finished here.

 

[JyRO]

To answer a few questions...

After tightening the fuel lid and having it run good for a while, I refueled. Now its down probably less than a gallon from full.



As far as warranty goes, I think adding a pusher does give the dealer a excellent "out" for warranty claims. So then the dealer could make me pay for the LP. AND THEN, 15,000 miles later (when I only have 60,000 miles on the clock), the VP goes kapoot from when the LP was failing. Guess who's stuck with the bill on that? ME. No thanks.



Gary, I agree the pusher is an excellent, almost fool-proof solution to the worthless LP's D/C is dishing out. But I'm not willing to get shafted more than I have to by adding a pusher, which gives the dealer every right to void the warranty.



Yeah, sure - my VP may have suffered for no-telling how many miles (not too many is my guess). BUT! It is COVERED by warranty for the next 55,000 miles, no question about that.



If it goes out after 100,000 miles, so be it. That's the way the cookie crumbles. I'll bite that bullet then. That might happen say in 2008 or so... . I'll keep you informed.



For now, I've got a trusty ole 198,000+ mile Toyota, and another 56,000+ mile Toyota to fall back on. Its a shame that my 198,000 mile Celica is more reliable than my 45,000 mile truck. But that too, is just how it is. My truck sitting at the bank doesn't bother me. If it get's vandalized (not likely, its in a good neighborhood), that's covered by insurance. So I'm not going to worry about it, that's why I pay my premiums.



I'll be getting gaged soon enough. I'll monitor the LP, but installing a pusher... I don't know. I'll talk to my dealer about what they say warranty wise if I do.



Talking about my time - I work long hours during the week. "The Warden," informed me last night that I was to come home (Friday night) and spend time with her and the 2 JyRO Jr. 's (2. 5 years & 3 weeks). Which is what I did. She said, "she preferred," that I save the work on the truck for Saturday. So my free time is limited. And the fact of the matter is I do like to spending time with the family. But when there's something that I need to get done with my truck, sometimes that work just has to wait. And this was a good case, where the work didn't take long at all.



It would be nice to have all day and night to shop around, go here and there, buy components and parts, that I can take home. Then spend the rest of the day and/or the next day(s) installing that stuff on my truck so I can come to the TDR (and other sites) and lecture people like I'm the principal, and they're the students. "You should be doing this like me, I've done it it, why can't you be more like me!"



Anyway, if I had time to kill, I may likely be driving around in a 3/4 ton Ram whose dry weight was greater than the GVWR from all the goodies I had added. But that's not my luxury. I fight the battles that I have to, throw water on the fires as I can. And do a little extra when I have time. I paid for the warranty my truck has (it WAS hidden in the cost of the vehicle), and I'm keeping it around ALAP.



Like I said, my current VP might crap out at 100,001 miles. If it does, that's just how the cookie crumbles. I can accept that. But I have a hard time adding the, "less than $100," pusher pump to the cost of my original warranty - and voiding that warranty in the process.



- JyRO



PS - Kshine, excellent reply. As an added note, I was working on mine before you added yours. Yours came as a shock to me on the lecturing part, cause I too added a comment regarding being lectured. Kshine, thanks for making me feel like I'm not a total horses-a$$ for not having added a pusher pump before I drove it off the dealer lot.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I guess if "lecturing" is what you call responding to comments others have made rather pointedly to or about you, I'll just have to plead guilty - and as far as the accusation about replying in an edit inside earlier post rather than making a new one, all ya gotta do is look at posting and edit times to sort THAT out - NOT guilty!



JyRO, I sincerely hope you get all your situation sorted out to your satisfaction - and your truck gives you MANY more years and miles of satisfaction - with or without a pusher pump!



And finally, once desperation causes civility and logic to start getting replaced with unnecessary insult and abuse, it's time to move on...



So long to THIS thread...

 

[BillGotthelf]

My 99 has 90,000 miles and 84,000 on a stock lift pump (original one replaced because of water/trash vandalism which took out vp44 also) with no pusher pump. I have also had a triple gauge pillar mount and two pressure gauges from geno's sitting in my shop for the past three months-too bad there's only 24 hrs in a day. I too am worried about the warranty (bought 6/100,000) but with bigger injectors, pdr hx40 turbo, 4" exhaust and a tst powermax 9 I guess I pretty well can forget about the warranty. Maybe they will still cover the ac for the next 10,000 miles.

 

[JyRO]

And finally, once desperation causes civility and logic to start getting replaced with unnecessary insult and abuse, it's time to move on...

Gary - You could be one of the most useful members on the TDR. But comments like this, just plain drive people away. I've been playing with my 2 y. o. for the past couple hours and holding my 3 week old. Without a care in the world. For Pete's sake... when it all boils down, its just a lousy piece of steel, plastic & glass, with an interesting mess of metal parts spinning around under the hood.



So who's desperate? I grabbed jtisdale's gage, locked the doors and casually walked away, to deal with it later. I haven't insulted or abused you. I HAVE stated that trying to have a online meaningfull discussion with you makes me feel like I'm sitting in the principal's office.



If that makes you feel insulted, maybe YOU should do something about it. If telling people here that you're running off with your little feelings hurt helps, then do that. Personally I'll miss your excellent fuel delivery info, but not the ... . additional subtle stuff... . that comes with it.



Let's get back to what this topic is about (with or without Gary - I still welcome his technical input).



Lsfarm - I'll take a small peen down to it tomorrow. And give it a whack (not hard enough to even leave a mark) and see what happens. I tend to agree with ya. Its been cranking up and running well after a long stint just sitting. And I did notice that after attaching the gage that once I started moving, the motion seemed to spike the pressure up a bit. So maybe whacking it may let me either limp it home, or better yet, to the dealer. I doubt its totally dead, but it could be I guess. I guess I'll find out.



I'd actually do the repair Alan Reagan posted, but then I'd get it to the dealer and the pressure would be OK. I'm going to ask the dealer if I can keep the bad LP. And I'll do the repair procedure to the old one and keep it for a spare. I can't find Alan's post though. Can someone link it? Thanks.



- JyRO

 

[jtisdale]

Tow truck

Jyro,

I would call the dealer Monday morning, and tell them exactly where your truck is. They should have no problem with picking it up on THEIR dime. This is assuming you have a vaild warranty. This means your not out of the time or mileage frame, and you havent done any bombs.

Also, tell them what you have discovered with the test gauge, and the problems you have encountered. Remember, you will get better service with "sugar as apposed to vinegar". It might take them a week or so to get the job done. Be patient. If you cant get satisfactory service, go to another dealer. This IS a warranty issue and IS covered under the engine warranty.

Good luck, and keep us posted

 

[Bob Cochran]

JyRO ~ Not to worry about trying taking it in on a Saturday. Like most service departments they probably have a drop of even if not open. You know here you lock it up, put the key in a drop box for them to work on Monday first thing. Besides less traffic, etc. to cause a problem!!!!



Dumb is like me was not keeping close enough track on the mileage on a tank of fuel. It start missing and died; had it towed to dealer. Guess what the found, the fuel module bad so was out of fuel even though it showed 1/4 tank!!!! I will watch the mileage per tank better I can assure you. I should know better that problem has been talked about here before. The module went bad from last fill and ran out of fuel before next.



Now I have a fairly good dealer (not perfect) and they are 5* but even then they do some dumb stuff. I told them I had a little right steering pull, I mean small have to hold maybe 2 degree steer to the right. Know what they did to fix it? Said they rotated tires and they may have (charege $24 for it too). Interestingly I found more air in the right tire 10lbs higher than the left when I got it back. It did help though



I will not hastle dealer yet on it just not bad enough yet to grumble. I pick my battles and at this point don't think it is worth it!:-{}



Bottom line JyRO not to worry.

 

[JyRO]

I'm like Iceman on this one...

Hey man... I'm cool. I don't have to worry about it. My truck is not a daily driver, so its not in demand for me. I decided a few years back, that having a back-up car is invaluable. And its covered under warranty, no problems. 45,000 miles on it now. 55,000 more miles until I become my own warranty station.



It could sit at the dealer for a while and I wouldn't care, as long as they're not out joyriding with it, or swapping parts out on it. They won't be joyriding in it anyway, in the condition its in now.



- JyRO

 

[Bob Cochran]

JyRO ~ Moral to story just watch the dealer. They do some strange stuff!!!

 

[JyRO]

Watching the dealer...

I agree, and I'm scared a little to leave it with them. I'm more comfortable with it sitting in that bank parking lot (seriously). For all I know, some guy will come in and say he's got a warped wheel (same kind as mine), and they'll swap his and mine. That's the kind of stuff I would hit the roof about. I will not stand for that. I wish I had a big enough trailer to take it down there. Let them look it over and when they say, "its gonna take 3 to 5 days to get a LP. " I can tell them to call me when its in, and I'll bring it back down here.



The one thing I have done is; Steve St. Laurence put a lock through his OBD connector. I looked at mine, but there was no hole to put a lock through (although I'm not sure he had a hole either, maybe he went from the wire side into the connector to the pin side, that just occurred to me while proof reading this). So I backed it out of its mounted position, and hid it back up under the knee bolter, as high as I could and as invisible as I could. In the hopes that they get down there and see its missing from where it should be, then at the most, they take a look and can't find it and decide just to forget about scanning codes (and reflashing). I have a buddy at work who can take care of such things, whatever I want when it comes to codes and scanning. I don't know if his tool can set the high idler and 3 cylinder idler for quicker warm-ups though. I ain't to worried about that since mine is garage kept. Hiding the connector is about all I can do, I think.



- JyRO

 

[Bob4x4]

Jyro,one of the first things a dealer MUST do is attach a drb111 and check for codes on a no start. To receive a lift pump from D/C the tech must give the Star agent certain info,Vin#,engine # what codes if any,pressure at idle,hi idle and under load(if running),and inches of vacuum on suction side. I can tell you all the D/C techs I know that work on these under warranty do not want to do a flash for what D/C pays unless they have to. Please have a little faith in people,treat the techs with the respect that you would like and the majority of the time you will come away happy and satisfied. I replace a lot of lift pumps and feel for the customers inconvenience. Good luck with your truck,think positive and hopefully your warranty experience will be an enjoyable one. E-mail dkevdog and ask him about his.



Bob

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

maybe he went from the wire side into the connector to the pin side, that just occurred to me while proof reading this

Yep - that's exactly what I did.