I've always wanted to do this... (aviation stuff)

[klenger]

After over 30 years of working on corporate airplanes, and watching big shots drive up to their airplane to load bags, I finally had a chance to do it myself yesterday. Our company owns a Raytheon King Air 350 that we usually use for product research and for transportation for us poor engineering types. We also have a Falcon 20 that doesn't get used very much because of the operating cost. Because of scheduling reasons, we took the Falcon to Long Beach this week for meetings. I had several boxes of paperwork to take along, so I drove up to the airplane, loaded up our stuff, and were in Long Beach an hour later. I'm just a pee-on engineer, but having fun with some neat high-tech projects.



The project that required this trip is a differental GPS landing system we are doing for Norway. Accuaracy down to a few cm. with approach minumums equal to CAT 1 ILS for you aviation types.



#ad

 

[NPloysa]

Sweet! That's a beautiful picture, a CTD and a turbofan business jet. Two of the sweetest engines in the world, gas turbine and diesel.



I work under the base leg and final approach of Centennial Airport just outside of Denver. I see these guys landing and taking off all the time.



I actually got to pilot a small business plane, not a jet, just a little piston engine. It was a Beechcraft Duke, twin 335 HP Continentals, pressurized, 6-seater. Fun plane! Your pic reminds me of the day I went to the airport, but the plane is half the size of your company's jet



Nick

 

[klenger]

I've worked on few Dukes. Boy do they get hot in the summer, but they are fast. I worked at Stapleton A/P for about 17 years, at DIA for 6, and worked at Centennial from time to time as required, and at Jeffco for about 3 months before moving to Tucson.

 

[guava]

I'd be tempted to call it a diesel turbine and a cummins diesel... Jet A is about the same as diesel and its more fun to think of it that way...

 

[Jengle]

Now that is a cool picture. Sounds like you are having fun.

 

[jrandol]

The Duke is one bad arse plane!! I love the looks of them and boy can they haul butt!!



klenger, did I read this right? "GPS Accuaracy down to a few cm. with approach minumums equal to CAT 1 ILS"

Oo. Oo.



Would be a perfect fit for my someday personal plane!! Who do you work for?



Jeff

 

[snowracer69]

klenger,



so, what do you think of Embry-Riddle Aerospace Engineering grads? 12 months from now I'll have my degree... not that I'd want to work in Arizona, but, with the right CUMMINS connection... ... Just curious, as I know what a lot of people think about our pilots, but haven't heard about us enginerding types... .



Good looking ride... . the pickup that is. Not a fan of the 20 series Falcons, but a jet none-the-less, so very .



How much about your GPS system can you disclose? I run farm equipment in the spring (actually will be starting again on the 8300 saturday) that is accurate to 0. 51". Just wondering if you guys are using a LAAS type system or if this is strictly off sats. We have to set up stationary antennas at the field with known locations so everything can be cross-checked between the sats and tractor and stationary stuff to make sure the tractor is driving itself straight. Figure this would be about the only way for airplanes to do the same.



Can you say precision GPS approach to 100 foot minimums in a Cessna 172 to any airport in the US? I know I can!



Josh

 

[klenger]

I worked with an Embry-Riddle graduate in the past. He was a good dude. I hesitate to say too much about our project, but it is local differental. Keep in mind that the approach speeds for a jet are around 150 kts, so keeping cm accuracy at those speeds is pretty cool.



Here's a link to the project. The info is a bit dated. I guess if they can post it on our corporate website, I can at least refer to that.



http://www.uasc.com/products/index.asp?contentid=prod_navsensors&rightmenuid=48

 

[DHayden]

I'd be tempted to call it a diesel turbine and a cummins diesel... Jet A is about the same as diesel and its more fun to think of it that way...

Little off subject but back in 89 we were doing a tour at the National Training Center (NTC) in CA. We got a little lost in our UH-1 at dusk and were running low on fuel. Long story short... we saw a tanker driving down a desolate road in the desert so we landed in front of him, ask him what he was carrying. He said JP8 (diesel) so we talked him out of 100 gallons . It smoked and was a little low on power but it got us home



BTW this was all military equipment (tanker and UH-1) in an enclosed training area.

 

[CoastyAV8R]

#ad








Here is a photo of one of our Coast Guard Falcon 20's dropping a dewatering pump. Little bit different that yours. We still fly the daylights out of them regardless of operating costs.



I remember being out at the National Training Center at Fort Irwin. I can definitely understand how you would get lost out there, not many navaids in the middle of nowhere...

 

[Big_Bad_Dually]

I'm currently working with Trimble Navigation in Calif. There is some pretty awsome stuff going on it the GPS world today isnt there?



You guys in the commercial air industry dont need real time correction because you run off of sats. without any induced error in them right?

(I just read the link and found you use VHF). Trimble is using 800mhz but only allowing 13 mile radius before the program wont work anymore.



Snowracer - Do you have an Autopilot system?

 

[CoastyAV8R]

I thought only the military had the P codes that correct for the programmed GPS error. It sounds from what a few of you guys are saying, the civilian world has them also.





You know what's funny about our Falcon is that one of the primary navaids for over water use is an old inertial nav system. This summer we are finally getting a new avionics package that will have 2 nav computers with embedded GPS recievers as well as a few multi function displays to get rid of our antiquated analog HSI's and ADI's. The most amazing display of faith in GPS I have seen is the GPS approach in to Juneau Alaska. You have to fly down a valley for your initial approach fix then continue down the valley which is at most 3 miles wide, make a few small turns then hopefully break out before your mins. By using the GPS approach, it is easier to get in and I feel alot safer that the old approaches.

 

[Big_Bad_Dually]

AG Products

We have to use the ground based correction system to counter act the error that is put into the "free use" sats that the government lets us use.



This is done by having a second GPS receiver that never moves and a two way radio to talk to the reciever on the tractor and tell it how far off it is. They are only accurate within 13 miles of the fixed receiver due to atmospheric conditions (how fast the signal travels to each receiver) and which sats each antenna is picking up.



http://trimble.com/agriculture.html



On the smaller less acurate models that dont steer our tractors we use Beacon towers in Pueblo CO or Whitney NE.



Reading the link in the post from klenger they are using VHF signals to correct the error.

brian



- who needs gps anyway i can touch and go a 172 in the dark (when im trying to land) (did that on my first night llanding)

 

[klenger]

Our system does not use P-Code. It is a local differental corrected system that uses a VHF ground station in the 108-118 NAV band to up-link the correction to the airborne equipment. It is somewhat the same technology that is used by surveying equipment, but cost a bunch more. The differental correction is considerably more accurate than P-Code.



CoastyAV8R:

Who's equipment are they installing in your aircraft? We make all the stuff you are referring to.

 

[snowracer69]

Originally posted by Big_Bad_Dually

Snowracer - Do you have an Autopilot system?

Well, I personally don't, but the guy I work for has one, and supposedly we're getting a second this year. Problem is we don't have a second tractor to put it in yet!!! My Dad works full time for him as a consultant/salesman/pilot and has increased his business size greatly in the last 4 years because of his reputation... he tried to tell him last year to buy another 8300 so we could have two doing the custom work at the same time, but he wouldn't... now he needs it cause we're gonna be so far behind this year!!!



It took the guy who runs our Trimble unit most the time nearly a month to figure out how to use the dam thing correctly... . took me 2 hours!!! Guess that's the difference in a 40 year old man fighting the computer and a 21 year old kid actually knowing how to use it. After running it on the 6 PM-6 AM shift for a couple nights, it really is a nice thing to have. You just don't get tired when you don't have to think about driving straight all the time.



On the local antennas, we made portable base units for ours and carry them with us and set them up at the field, then leave the bases at the field until we move to the next one. That way the stationary stuff is always at the same spot when working that field. There are some other farmers who all pooled together and bought the AutoFarm system and they set up antennas in our grain elevators around the basin... they can go pretty much anywhere in a 40 mile radius and have their steering, but from what we see out of it, it's nowhere near as good as ours... maybe that's just because the two people who use our system (me and the other guy) are perfectionists and won't let it not drive straight for fear of looking bad.

 

[CoastyAV8R]

I was wondering how the got a GPS approach so precise without P codes, that makes sense though and prevents the wrong people from having the corrected accuracy.



Klenger,

I haven't seen a completed aircraft yet as they started the first one last week at our overhaul facility in North Carolina. Rockwell Collins is what I have heard as we have a power by the hour contract with them for a lot of our avionics equipment repair. What company do you work for? What type of engineering do you do?



I didn't know they used GPS guided auto pilot on farm tractors, that is amazing. I guess that there is still someone in the tractor in case you suffer some kind of equipment malfunction so you don't mow the neighbors house down.

 

[DHayden]

I knew a guy in Oregon that built some of these tractors or combines. He said they remember where all the obstacles are and will automatically maneuver around with precision.

 

[klenger]

CoastyAV8R:



I work for Universal Avionics Systems Corp.



http://www.uasc.com



I am a Certification Engineer. Mostly I spend my time putting STC packages together and maintaining them. We do a lot of work with the LAACO in Long Beach CA, which is what started this whole thread. I spent about 18 years before this doing Systems Engineering for Learjet (Bombardier), and worked for about 10 years before that as an Avionics Tech. You can do the math, ... I'm old. I've spent a lot of time with Collins products. Good stuff.

 

[CoastyAV8R]

What an awesome job. I love tinkering with things and I love airplanes. I'm sure you have your moments like any other job, but in general, that is great. Your given a problem then you have to go outside the box at times to fix it and when you do, that's what it's about...