Jacobs or Pacbrake, which is best

[Snoplop]

I have ordered a 2003 1 ton 4wd dually with every option available from Dave Smith motors in Kellogg Idaho. Want the best of everything put on it when it arrives. Stainless grill guard with a 15k winch, Stainless nerf bars, Rino lining in the bed and on rocker panels, Air bags with cockpit control/ gages, Tork lift camper tie downs and a Tork lift reciever hitch, electric rear window slider, pin striping and..... an exaust brake. I have heard differing opinions on the Jacobs and Pacbrake and am not clear on which is more reliable. Pacbrake is suppose to be much easyer to install and appears to be very well made, though the Jacobs was jointly engineered and and has sole endorsement of Cummins and Dodge. I doubt an exaust brake will send a Cummins engine to an early grave so, warranty issues aside, I am wondering which exaust brake those of you who are "in-the-know" would recommend and is the most durable for the long haul? (Have debated on replacing the bumper with a Winch/grill guard style from Trailready rather than just a winch mount grill guard, since I am gathering information any bumper ideas will come in handy. ) Thanks

 

[Mathew Clausen]

The main difference in my opinion is that Pac uses air to operate the valve, jake uses vacuum. The jake comes with a belt drive vacuum pump that mounts to the engine, pac has an electric air compressor that mounts to the firewall.



They both use the engine ecm to control on/off so all functional features are the same. Pac has a better looking shifter switch (if your getting a manual) to turn on and off.



Pac uses nitride coating on the housing and shaft - not sure if that really makes a difference or not - don't think it would hurt anyway.



They both will give similar braking power (limited by max cummins spec for backpressure).



I chose Pac because I can use the air for other things (putting small tank for moto tire inflation) and it is cheaper and easier to install. Only downside is you do hear the compressor run for a second or so when you turn on the brake (not loud, but you do hear it). This will be better with the tank that I am going to add because it shouldn't have to run every time you turn on.



For your situation it seems like Pac is the easy choice because you can use the air compressor to run your airbags as well.



Mathew

 

[HBarlow]

Snoplop:



My experience with an exhaust brake is limited only to the Jacobs E-brake I had my dealer install on my '01 Ram 3500 before I took delivery of the truck. I have not owned a PacBrake so have no opinion on its quality, performance, manufacturer support, etc.



In just under 70k miles of daily use my Jacobs E-brake has performed flawlessly. The only problem I have experienced is a recent intermittent failure to engage after prolonged towing at highway speed with electronic cruise control engaged. The problem turned out to be not the Jacobs E-brake itself but intermittent loss of a "closed-throttle" signal from the ECM caused by the Dodge APPS (accelerator pedal position indicator) which reportedly has an interface issue with the cruise control.



I inquired on the TDR forum if anyone had experienced a similar problem and could offer suggestions.



Carlton Bale, a Cummins-Jacobs engineer involved with product development for the E-brake responded to my post and answered my question. He advised me that the problem had recently been identified and that a revised APPS had been developed. Carlton did everything he could to get the part replaced for me under warranty (68k miles on odometer) including personally contacting my selling dealer to explain the situation. Unfortunately for me it turned out that the APPS is a Dodge part covered under the DC 3yr/36k warranty instead of the Cummins 5yr/100k warranty so his effort was not successful. However, it was not for lack of doing all he could to assist.



I consider it pretty remarkable that a Cummins-Jacobs engineer would voluntarily monitor the TDR forums and respond with factual, accurate engineering information whenever anyone posts a question or problem with his product. I know of no other product that offers that kind of customer service.



The fact that either Dodge or Cummins can sell, install, and perform warranty repairs on Jacobs E-brake products is important to me. I'm sold on the quality of Cummins engines and Jacobs exhaust brakes. For these reasons, I recommend the Jacobs E-brake.



Just my opinion!



Harvey

 

[Kilby]

Originally posted by Mathew Clausen

The jake comes with a belt drive vacuum pump that mounts to the engine, pac has an electric air compressor that mounts to the firewall.

Where does the pump mount on the engine?

 

[Casey Balvert]

Just below the throttle linkage cover. The front of the engine, near the top, on the driver's side.



Casey

 

[Dean Upson]

I have had Jacobs brakes on my 98. 5 and now on my '03 and I can heartily recommend it to anyone. I never had any problem at all and it works great. I chose Jacobs because it was designed for this engine and is backed by D/C and Cummins.



Dean

 

[Fred Swanson]

Cost should come into play in this question too. The Pac Should be less money, too.



You want bumper ideas. Try this one out.

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[JohndeereG]

Lag time

How do each react when shifting. Does one have 1-2 second delay when releasing the clutch. To save some money, I was curious how difficult the install is? Does the fact that you don't use the dealer effect the overall warranty?

 

[jelag]

Both connect to the ECM so that both are powered by the ECM...



However the PacBrake uses a clutch contact switch which allows the brake to be left on all the time... ... and what I mean here is that when the ECM says it needs to be activated it will turn it on... . However when shifting... . a smoother shift can be obtained if the exhaust brake doesn't come on..... so when the clutch pedal is down the brake is shut down.....



I personally think the installation is easier and faster on the PacBrake..... The fast tech's in the dealers are doing it in 2 1/2 hours... . If you pull the inner fender off on the right side... . (6 screws and 10 minutes) you have access to all the mounting points.....



Plus later if you need the benefit of air on board... you can install a small tank and do bike tires. etc... ... I personally don't think the air compressor would do your truck tire with out 2 or 3 rest periods... ...



Jim

 

[HBarlow]

The Cummins Jacobs E-brake uses the ECM for a "closed throttle" signal. A one and one half second delay after the throttle is closed allows shifting without brake activation. I leave my E-brake on almost all the time.



I can only speak to the way the GenII brake works but assume the 2003 version operates in a similar manner.



Harvey

 

[Dean Upson]

The Jacobs brake on my '03 seems to work exactly the same as the one on my 98. 5 did.



Dean

 

[Carlton Bale]

Originally posted by Roger rodbolt

The Pac Brake. . . has a larger outlet then the Mopar (4" vs 3. 5"?) which compensates for the added restriction of the shaft and valve to control egts. A lesser but mantinance feature is that any air operated brake exhausts or pushs air out of the cylinder and electric solinoid valve when you release the brake.

This is not the case. Both brakes have the same inlet and outlet dimensions, otherwise they wouldn't be able to connect to the stock exhaust and turbo. The Jacobs elbow has a smoother shape, which might lead to reduced backpressure when the butterfly is open.



In regards to maintenance, the Jacobs brake does not require any routine lubrication or any other special care. We field tested somewhere between 50 and 60 brakes on prototype trucks before launch, in addition to test cell validation, to prove reliability.



Enjoy your brake -- which ever you decide to purchase!

 

[Shelby Griggs]

The TDR comes through again. I have had an intermittent e-brake problem very similar to Harvey. Dealer said they could find no problem, which of course they could not since at least in my case it seems to only occur after long periods of time (heat soak?).



I had already figured out on my own that the problem was being caused by a too high of idle condition, just didn't know the cause. Mr. Bale seems to have traced this to the APPS.



Since this appears to be a design flaw, is there going to be a TSB? How am I going to convince my dealer to replace the APPS?



If DC isn't covering the cost, what am I looking at dollar wise to replace the APPS?



Shelby

 

[Carlton Bale]

Shelby,



The APPS is covered under DaimlerChrysler warranty, so if you are within their warranty period, you should have to pay.



Have your dealer contact the Star hotline. They have been informed of the issue and should authorize a warranty replacement.



There are no fault codes associated with the issue. When using cruise, there is a re-autozero that occurs due to movement within the APPS. This causes the exhaust brake not to turn on because the idle condition not detected. At this point in time, replacing the APPS is the only solution. Let me know if you have any problems.

 

[Shelby Griggs]

Carlton,



Thanks, your information HAS made my day. Just want to clarify one thing. Is the problem a false indication of no idle, or actually an idle that is too fast. In my case sometimes I notice that the engine is actually idling too fast, so obviously the e-brake won't engage. Other times the idle seems to be normal or close to it. Harvey's original description in late March is very close to my symptoms.



I have under 100K but am way out of the 36K warranty. can you clarify which warranty the APPS is covered under?



Thanks again. This has been a problem for me for over 6 months with no solution, you have been most helpful.



Shelby

 

[Carlton Bale]

Shelby,



The APPS should only cause the exhaust brake not to be activated. I would not expect any change in idle speed. I suppose if there was a change, it would be very minor and almost unnoticeable.



Unfortunately, the APPS is a DaimlerChrysler part and is not covered by the Cummins warranty.



There is a remote chance that there will be a service calibration at some point in the future to eliminate this issue but I can't promise anything at this point. The only solution right now is to replace the APPS. I'm not sure of the exact cost, but I'm guessing it is several hundred dollars.

 

[mgonske]

Carlton,



I wonder if you could help me with a basic question on the operation of the Jacobs E-brake? It seems to me at least a couple of people have posted that their brake turns off if they are stopped and the engine is warm--mine doesn't, and I don't see anything in the operation manual about that. It would be nice to have it go quiet once I pull up to a stop, and if I'm missing a nice feature, I'd like to know that I should be complaining; if, OTOH, those other posters are imagining things, it would be nice to know so I can put my mind at ease.



Thanks!

 

[J.V.]

Pac, Jacobs or BD?

I bought the Pac and used it 30 days and had it removed and my money returned. It had little effect on braking on my new '03 with 6 speed. I had the Jacobs E-Brake on my '99 and it worked very well. I felt the price of the new Jacobs was way out of line. I now have the new BD installed. It is similiar to the Pac, but supposed to work at lower RPM. Air pressure from the compressor is adjustable so braking can be adjusted to a max of 65# exhaust presssure. The Pac would do nothing till reaching at least 3000 RPM. This made it hard to use for stop and go driving, only worked going down a hill and after shifting to 4th gear.

 

[J.V.]

Pac, Jacobs or BD?

I bought the Pac and used it 30 days and had it removed and my money returned. It had little effect on braking on my new '03 with 6 speed. I had the Jacobs E-Brake on my '99 and it worked very well. I felt the price of the new Jacobs was way out of line. I now have the new BD installed. It is similiar to the Pac, but supposed to work at lower RPM. Air pressure from the compressor is adjustable so braking can be adjusted to a max of 65# exhaust presssure. The Pac would do nothing till reaching at least 3000 RPM. This made it hard to use for stop and go driving, only worked going down a hill and after shifting to 4th gear.

 

[HBarlow]

Mark,



I think there is a misunderstanding somewhere in the idea that the Cummins E-brake will deenergize (open) when idling. Mine does not and I know of no such provision.



When the throttle is closed and the exhaust brake is turned on, the brake remains energized (closed. ) That is one of the nice features of the brake because it allows quicker warmup and can be used to keep engine temperatures in a safe range for extended idling.



Harvey