Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) jrandol, mgoncalves... high altitude injector question

[NPloysa]

Hi guys.



You both told me recently that you are taking your DD3s out due to difficult starting at high altitudes. What are you going to be putting in in their place?



I live in Conifer which is over 8000', sometimes work in the 8000'-9500' elevations. Would stage 2s suffice for some bombing?



When I bomb I don't want my truck to not start at 9500 feet and in 10 degree temps!



Thanks guys. I know it has been debated but things change and more opinions are nice!



Nick

 

[Sticks]

You have to remember that they were both at 11k feet, in the winter, and it was cold (20*ish) and they were not plugged in. . Jeff talked to a few others about this and the consensus was cycle the grid heaters a few times before you start. Hopefully he and/or Matt will chime in here.



If you were living at that altitude full time, those stage threes may not be a good idea. You may even have a little trouble at 9500 if the truck is cold, or sat for 6 hours in those temps. There is still a lot more air at 9500 than 11k. You won't know until you try.



After the Dyno run (520/1040??), I am pretty sure it will be a cold frosty day in he!! before Jeff goes to a smaller injector. Hopefully Matt will see the light and keep his too.

 

[mgoncalves]

I just got off the phone with Jeff, the only way his injectors are coming out is if he has bigger ones to put in .



Like Sticks said, we were up very high and it was actually a little colder than that. I am probably freaking out over this a little more than I should, but there was also a stock duramax and stock PSD with us that had no problems starting. Granted we have quite a bit more power than those, but I like to have my cake and eat it too.



To answer your question, yes you would be fine with 2's or 3's. Maybe even larger, depending on how regular you can plug in. For now, I'm trying to sell mine with the intent of buying 275's for winter use and probably this spring I'll buy some real monsters for summer time (Don't worry Sticks, I don't think you can ever really settle for less power ).



By the way, they're not DD's







Matt

 

[tajensen]

Nick



Although Fort Collins isn't even near 8000 feet, I think this may help. I bought into the hype of EDMs and installed Don's Mach 2's last night. I would say that the idle and acceleration are smoother and start-ups are easier. Of course, this is only after 1 day, so I'll let you know how it gets as the weather gets colder. If you don't know what size to get, talk to Don and he'll help you decide based on a bunch of parameters.



-Tim

 

[jrandol]

He** will freeze over before I pull mine out! I think the main consensus has been from guys that have more experience than me (Bob Berends, OTR trucker for alot of years, thanks for the advice Bob!) is that you need to cycle those grid heaters a few times before firing it up and then expect it to run hard at first when its really cold and I am up in the elevation. I think it was 20 degrees up there (sure felt colder than that) and we were at 11k feet. I was puffin just walkin from the truck back to the tent Second, I run 15-40 year round (Rottella) thats heavy stuff at that temp. especially if it hadnt been ran for 3 days like my situation and Matt's was. So what I think it really boils down to is the wrong combo all together, too heavy of oil, not getting warm air in the engine, and then not stock fueling to the truck.



Dont worry Matt will turn around. I feel like we are loosing one of the bombitis crowd but I see where Matts going. 275's ran really nice in my truck and with his Comp it will be a great combo for daily driver. I put money on next year he will have him a set of monster showerheads for horsin around with. Injector install only takes an hour so you could make a weekend driver out of em.

I do have to say we both lost a little pride up there huntin next to a PSD owner who kept braggin his truck up and then a Duramax too. You talk the Cummins up after the days hunt over a beer around the fire and then everyone watches you real close everytime you get next to the rig. Both of those trucks were stock and probably couldnt pull worth beans, but you know how it goes. The ration of crap flies when your truck doesnt start with a tick of the starter. I say put em all on the dyno and then we'll see who gets real quiet!



Personally, next year I will probably go REALLY big EDM's. If all goes as planned my truck will not be a daily driver but a play toy at that point. Cross your fingers!

 

[jrandol]

Originally posted by mgoncalves

I just got off the phone with Jeff, the only way his injectors are coming out is if he has bigger ones to put in .



Like Sticks said, we were up very high and it was actually a little colder than that. I am probably freaking out over this a little more than I should, but there was also a stock duramax and stock PSD with us that had no problems starting. Granted we have quite a bit more power than those, but I like to have my cake and eat it too.



To answer your question, yes you would be fine with 2's or 3's. Maybe even larger, depending on how regular you can plug in. For now, I'm trying to sell mine with the intent of buying 275's for winter use and probably this spring I'll buy some real monsters for summer time (Don't worry Sticks, I don't think you can ever really settle for less power ).



By the way, they're not DD's













Matt

Yep, Matts right, these are secret injectors.





Yo Matt,



:{ :{ :{ Were loosin ya buddy. You come on back now ya here? Who am I going to take to the next bombers anonymous class? Will you be there for me when I have one of those late night urges to call Piers and place an order for twins?

 

[Sticks]

You know guys, it occurred to me the other day about this hard start thing and lack of air on those once a year trips... You might actually be able to use one of those electric turbos they are putting on the ricers. I'll bet they would put out just enough air at idle to cure that fuel/air ratio problem.



Matt, You and I both know about the second time you decide to swap out those injectors for the weekend you are gonna say "screw this" and leave the big 'ns in. You know I want them REAL bad, but it takes a while to add up enough taco bell money from other peoples couches to get the big $$$ you need.



Sticks

 

[Hohn]

Guys, there's a simple reason you weren't able to start in the really high altitude. It's the combination of cold temp and thin air.



When the air gets thin, you have the effect of much lower compression ratio (so the air won't get as hot in the cylinder). Combine that with air that's ALREADY cold, and you end up with the no-start condition.



Based on these conditions, I would say that injector size has little to nothing to do with why you couldn't start. I suppose it's possible that the poorer atomization of the large injectors could contribute to this, but it's not as significant as the altitude and cold air.



Cycling the heaters for 3 cycles will ensure a start about 99% of the time-- that is, if you have any battery juice left after that!



BTW-- When's the next RPMTDR get together?? I totally missed the dyno day last weekend because I was doing my DT track bar. Just let me know where and when the Rocky Mountain Bombers Anonymous meets, and I will be there.



"Hi. My name is Justin, and I am not content with 330+rwhp and 20 mpg. Does that make me a bad person?"





Justin

 

[jrandol]

Trust me Hohn, the bigger injectors make some difference in the scenario. More Fuel + Less Air= Harder starts. Back in the day when I drove the poor slow stock truck starting was cake. Our cabin is @ 10,500 and in the winter it fired right up stock. But you know how it goes, never enough power so in came the 3's.

But you dont hear me complaining I like the juice!! Oo. Oo.



The next Big event is Feb. 7th @ ATS. I hear there is a new Hooters opening up on 120th in Denver. I am driving by there tonight so I will scope it out. I am thinking a little burgers and beer are in order followed by a smoke show

With the holidays just around the corner I am not planning any events like a dyno day or wrench day because I fiquire alot of folks have family in town and turnout to events would probably be decreased. I have some things in store for Jan. but nothing I can finalize this very minute.



Jeff

 

[Hohn]

Sweet, Jeff. Please keep me posted. BTW-- I would make the trek down to Greeley just to check out your ride. Mine is pretty tame my TDR standards, but it's more than enough to get the attention of those who have ridden in it.



That cab resonance is killing me. I am going to go beat the truck up off road hoping that if it's a lost tool somewhere, I can knock it loose.



I stand corrected on the injectors. Maybe it's the atomization that caused the harder starting. More fuel alone shouldn't (on paper anyway) cause harder starting, should it? Besides, with honed 3s atomization is starting to suffer, as you near the showerhead point. Yep, it will be EDMs for me when my next injector upgrade comes. Anyhow. .



I have met ONE TDR member in person in my whole life. Just one. I have never ridden in a bombed truck except mine, and like I said, that's tame.



Think Nathan will give me a ride if I drive to Boise?





Justin

 

[mgoncalves]

Justin, you're in luck.



If you can get to Loveland tommorrow, I'm installing some gauges in a friends truck. Jeff's going to try and make it over, and my injectors are still in the truck.



PM me if you're interested in coming down for some brewskies, bombing and test rides. Not in that order, of course





Matt

 

[R.ebel]

High Alt.

Hey fellow RMTDR'ers,

If you think they are hard to start when high and cold with big'ol injectors try lowering your compression with a thicker head gasket I'm running a . 010" thicker gasket. The next time the head comes off, a stock thickness head gasket goes back on. At 9,000 ft and -2*F mine won't start after cold soaking (managed to get it to light with some either but that stuff really makes a Cummins rattle something terrible). I now carry a generator to preheat before starting up at those extreme elevations and temps.

 

[Hohn]

Just wanted to say thanks to Matt for letting me crash his party and stand around and watch him work



That front end resonance is still a mystery to me. I am about to turn loose a mechanic on it.



Jeff, wished I could have ridden in your truck. Hope the wife is feeling better.



RMTDR-- what a great group of guys.





Justin

 

[Bob Wagner]

Originally posted by jrandol

Yep, Matts right, these are secret injectors.

The hillbilly that made those secret injectors has a few other tricks up his sleeve

 

[jrandol]

Originally posted by Bob Wagner

The hillbilly that made those secret injectors has a few other tricks up his sleeve

They arent made by any Hillbilly trust me on that one. But its classified information in regards to where we got them from. "I could tell you but then I'd have to kill ya!" Lets just say we got hooked up big time!!

 

[Bob Wagner]

Originally posted by jrandol

They arent made by any Hillbilly trust me on that one. But its classified information in regards to where we got them from. "I could tell you but then I'd have to kill ya!" Lets just say we got hooked up big time!!

He sure sounded like a hilljack when we spoke this morning

 

[jrandol]

Originally posted by Bob Wagner

He sure sounded like a hilljack when we spoke this morning

Oh... ... ... . I know exactly who you are talking about now. exactly Matt nor myself are running that persons injectors based on very bad business situations with this individual in the past. No way no how will I or alot of people I know have anything to do with him.



I'll give you a little tiny hint where the injectors we run are from, they are manufactured in a diesel injection shop in a state thats west of colorado. They are awesome!!



While these are awesome I must say I look forward to running a set of your F1's (big honkin set) next spring for "play injectors" and most likely keep these 3's for daily drivers.

 

[mgoncalves]

Originally posted by Bob Wagner

He sure sounded like a hilljack when we spoke this morning

I think I know who you're talking about. Definetly not someone I would ever attempt to deal with again.





Matt

 

[jrandol]

I think Matt and I made our point pretty clear about the fella you are referring to Bob. I dont like to get into this kind of stuff about other people on open forums but if you need more details into that "hillbilly" feel free to PM me.



Thanks and have a great week!



Jeff Randol