just bought a carton of DEF.

[AlFischer]

I find this similar to to stories about not using gas that is more a month-six minths- a year old. Depends on who is saying it and where. Put it in a sealed container and how does it go bad.

 

[MattandLana]

If it is in a SEALED container how would it evaporate? Questionable requirement.

Seems it has more to do with ambient temp and exposure to sunlight, than to whether the container is sealed.

Cummins says: "The shelf life of DEF is a function of ambient storage temperature. DEF will degrade over time depending on temperature and exposure to sun light. Expectations for shelf life as defined by ISO Spec 22241-3 are the minimum expectations for shelf life when stored at constant temperatures. If stored between 10 and 90 deg F, shelf life will easily be one year. If the maximum temperature does not exceed approximately 75 deg F for an extended period of time, the shelf life will be two years."

You can find this, and anything else you ever wanted to know about DEF, and a whole bunch more than that, too, in this Cummins brochure.

If there are any chemists in the group could they please explain how DEF can expire. Sounds like marketing BS to me.

Can't answer this one sorry but x2 on wanting to know the chemistry. Of course DEF is more than just water and urea - nothing is ever completely pure. The ISO standard referenced above allows small amounts of all sorts of impurities e.g.. Iron, Copper, Zinc, Chromium, Nickel, Aluminum, Magnesium, Sodium, Potassium etc, so these will no doubt interact over time with each other and with the active ingredient.

I gather the 2 years comes from ISO, not the marketing guys.


As a final comment, we all like a bargain, but the minuscule amounts of DEF we consume compared with diesel, means that for most of us the differential saving in buying in bulk would barely pay for the cup of coffee we picked up at the same truck stop. Conversely, the high mileage guys will get through more, but do it in a shorter time. Either way, there doesn't seem to be all that much benefit in pushing the envelope in terms of storage time.

 

[Newsa]

If there are any chemists in the group could they please explain how DEF can expire. Sounds like marketing BS to me.

Urea is broken down naturally as it will actually react with the water it is dissolved in. This happens in plants much faster as catalyzed by urease (a catalyst that speeds up the reaction, but is not a reactant). Urea is a component of chemical fertilizer.

Urea goes through two decomposition steps. The first produces uric acid, the second, ammonium hydroxide which is effectively ammonia gas dissolved in water. Some carbon dioxide is released in the process. And some Ammonia gas.

Exposure to light ( which plants use) and nice hot temps will also speed up the process.

As said previously, crystals can also precipitate if the water evaporates. Probably not in sealed containers, but yes if in your tank.
Precipitation could also happen at low temps. A closer look at its solubility curve would be useful for that.
I think the def tank heater works with the engine off. Too bad the fuel tank heater doesn't also. It should operate both heaters at low temps in my opinion and only turn off when it detects the dual batteries getting low on charge.

 

[MattandLana]

Thanks Newsa!

 

[Bob4x4]

No the def heaters do not work key off and even beer goes bad wit higher temps

 

[MattandLana]

... even beer goes bad wit higher temps

The real reason why the red centre of Australia is still largely unpopulated.

 

[AlFischer]

That make more sense. But what happens when you truck with a full load of DEF sits in a hot desert climate and sees little use. Ait temp 120 and the body too hot to touch! It would seem to really reduce the life expectancy.

 

[olsonm]

Do you ever use the Bulk DEF sold at Truckstop's ? I just put 2600 miles on my 2013 and used about 8 gallon's in 2 week's.. Just wondering

 

[AlFischer]

About half comes from truckstops. I don't understand your using 8 gallons in 2600 miles. I am getting about 800 miles on a gallon. I have refilled the Wallyworld box a couple of times when I filled up and no problems. Store it in the basement for when I need it and there are no truckstops wit DEF pump close to home.

 

[GTOWag]

I just found where Blue DEF is printing the date codes. They now print it on the side of the plastic bottle which you can not see unless you take the bottle out of the box. So you have to buy it before you know what's inside .... kind of sounds like Pelosi about Obama Care huh! I hope the photo comes through OK.

 

[Copperhead]

Y'all need to broaden your horizons. Check with heavy commercial truck dealership shops, commercial truck tire and lube places, etc for DEF. The Mack Truck dealership near me will fill any DEF tank that rolls in whether it is on a Class 8 truck or a VW Passat from their bulk DEF tote for $1.79 / gallon currently. They go thru high volume so the stuff is always fresh. Same for the commercial truck tire and lubricants dealers in my area. In rural areas, farmer's coop fuel locations also have bulk DEF at reasonable pricing. Even at truck stops, DEF in containers will sit of shelves longer than it should, since the majority of trucks fill at the pump.

What really is bizarre is that these OEM's are using DEF in modern consumer diesels. Aminex, a European outfit, developed a cartridge based system that has Urea in a substrate in the cartridge and releases it as it is needed in the SCR unit. No water to freeze. Just replace the cartridge when it is time. They have them figured out so that a cartridge will last the typical oil change interval. And it has a 10 year shelf life.
http://www.amminex.com

 

[jacknife]

You Guys are really taking a simple product and making it into something difficult... Yes Def has a shelf life . The stuff is made to the same standards period. I have used Walmart Def , Peak and others never a problem. Probably like batteries a couple of places make it and slap different labels on it . I doubt they all have a DEF manufacturing facility. Just because you pay more does not make it better . Read the labels they all have the same ingredients. Truck stops have the freshest DEF maybe a week old at best, also a heck of a lot cheaper !

 

[PTsideshow]

Since may of last year I have been using Menards DEF

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I find that they move a lot of it as some times there is no on the shelf or in back stock. Haven't had any problems or indicator lights/messages. I do tend to keep the tank full by topping it off often. Couldn't find a date either on the carton or jug inside.

 

[KPear]

Y'all need to broaden your horizons. Check with heavy commercial truck dealership shops, commercial truck tire and lube places, etc for DEF. The Mack Truck dealership near me will fill any DEF tank that rolls in whether it is on a Class 8 truck or a VW Passat from their bulk DEF tote for $1.79 / gallon currently. They go thru high volume so the stuff is always fresh. Same for the commercial truck tire and lubricants dealers in my area. In rural areas, farmer's coop fuel locations also have bulk DEF at reasonable pricing. Even at truck stops, DEF in containers will sit of shelves longer than it should, since the majority of trucks fill at the pump.

What really is bizarre is that these OEM's are using DEF in modern consumer diesels. Aminex, a European outfit, developed a cartridge based system that has Urea in a substrate in the cartridge and releases it as it is needed in the SCR unit. No water to freeze. Just replace the cartridge when it is time. They have them figured out so that a cartridge will last the typical oil change interval. And it has a 10 year shelf life.
http://www.amminex.com

I'm interested to see how that Amminex product compares to the traditional SCR/DEF setup.

 

[Copperhead]

Check out their site. They have a ton of information there for everything from a car on up thru heavy trucks and equipment. Where it really seems to blow DEF away is in cold weather performance and congested traffic. While all their information is European related, in many instances they are beating the regulatory NOx reduction requirements by 50%, with a 2% better fuel economy compared to AdBlue DEF performance.


From their site......

 

[KPear]

My understanding of the modern diesel emissions controls is rudimentary at best, but I do believe that the two main diesel pollutants (NOx and Particulate Matter) require controls that counteract each other. Meaning, that in order to curtail NOx emissions, the enginneers have to allow some amount of PM formation and vice versa. This is why the modern diesels have both the DPF (to scrub PM) and the SCR systems (to deal with the NOx).

However, I wonder if in the near future, the engineers could design an engine and emissions system that totally eliminates all of the PM formation by ramping up the NOx. The lack of PM would negate the need for a finicky DPF and maybe they could use something like this Amminex cartridge to passively deal with all the formed NOx. Seems like that would reduce the complexities and inefficiencies of modern emissions.

 

[Copperhead]

You would be correct. Modern diesels prior to EGR were improving immensely in clean burning. The NOx thing was indeed a issue, but soot levels were dropping on their own considerably. I have owned several HD diesels that were very clean, from a soot standpoint. It was the introduction of EGR that messed things up. While it might work fine on a gasoline engine, it was terrible for the diesel and brought us back to the smokey diesel days again. If the idiots in power had gone with SCR right out of the gate and avoided EGR, the DPF thing might have never become part of the equation and we would not be having to deal with complications to such an extreme. Even with SCR, they still keep EGR on these engines and soot levels are more intense than if there was no EGR. Hense, DPF will be part of the equation. You just can't make a diesel eat it's own feces and expect great results.

In the HD commercial arena, some of us avoid this nonsense by buying new HD trucks thru the OEM parts channels, minus engines and drive trains, and then drop in rebuilt pre-EGR engines in them. Totally legal by both EPA and IRS. That is what my commercial Class 8 truck is.... a 2013 Freightliner with a factory remanned pre-EGR Detroit engine that was originally built in 2000. Rarely any smoke at all and stack tips hardly have any soot on them. Beefed up pre-emissions engines allowed to breath and do some serious work. And actually, more fuel efficient. My 2000 Detroit will put to shame all but the latest emission engines in fuel economy, and I can shame most of them on a hill under a load also.


Truth be told, the pickup OEM's could do the very same thing. Offer a chassis and body thru their parts distribution, complete with wiring harness to match the pickup with the engine the owner is planning to drop in. EPA ties the emissions to the year the engine is built, not the vehicle. But if one orders a new truck with a engine, then one cannot legally go backwards and drop in a earlier engine. The OEM could offer a brand new truck, then the owner drop in a pre-EGR Cummins in it, along with a trans of their choice and have an outstanding setup. But the light truck OEM's are not going to offer this sort of thing, so it is just a pipe dream.

 

[KPear]

You would be correct. Modern diesels prior to EGR were improving immensely in clean burning. The NOx thing was indeed a issue, but soot levels were dropping on their own considerably. I have owned several HD diesels that were very clean, from a soot standpoint. It was the introduction of EGR that messed things up. While it might work fine on a gasoline engine, it was terrible for the diesel and brought us back to the smokey diesel days again. If the idiots in power had gone with SCR right out of the gate and avoided EGR, the DPF thing might have never become part of the equation and we would not be having to deal with complications to such an extreme. Even with SCR, they still keep EGR on these engines and soot levels are more intense than if there was no EGR. Hense, DPF will be part of the equation. You just can't make a diesel eat it's own feces and expect great results.

In the HD commercial arena, some of us avoid this nonsense by buying new HD trucks thru the OEM parts channels, minus engines and drive trains, and then drop in rebuilt pre-EGR engines in them. Totally legal by both EPA and IRS. That is what my commercial Class 8 truck is.... a 2013 Freightliner with a factory remanned pre-EGR Detroit engine that was originally built in 2000. Rarely any smoke at all and stack tips hardly have any soot on them. Beefed up pre-emissions engines allowed to breath and do some serious work. And actually, more fuel efficient. My 2000 Detroit will put to shame all but the latest emission engines in fuel economy, and I can shame most of them on a hill under a load also.


Truth be told, the pickup OEM's could do the very same thing. Offer a chassis and body thru their parts distribution, complete with wiring harness to match the pickup with the engine the owner is planning to drop in. EPA ties the emissions to the year the engine is built, not the vehicle. But if one orders a new truck with a engine, then one cannot legally go backwards and drop in a earlier engine. The OEM could offer a brand new truck, then the owner drop in a pre-EGR Cummins in it, along with a trans of their choice and have an outstanding setup. But the light truck OEM's are not going to offer this sort of thing, so it is just a pipe dream.

Interesting perspective on the whole issue. I would think going forward if this Amminex product, or ones like it, can offer good NOx reduction, then modern pickup diesels could become less reliant on EGR and DPF to control the main emissions (NOx and PM). However it shakes out, it's good to know that diesel emissions technology is being improved upon.

I also never really thought too much of the EGR control. I know how everyone talks about it being bad to have the engine reuse its own exhaust, but in my opinion, it seems a whole lot less finicky than the DPF (which can get clogged or have sensors go bad) or the SCR (which can malfunction in cold weather or have a bad sensor as well). Honestly, it would seem that a diesel engine with EGR and a simple Catalyst and this Amminex canister would be fairly simple and reliable compared to the complex systems currently in use. Even Toyota puts EGR on their diesel engines overseas; Toyota usually goes above and beyond to ensure that their engines are long-lasting and reliable.