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Just got oil test back... not happy

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I'd sorta recommend against Oil Analyzers - they SEEM to be somehow associated with Amsoil, and I've seen analysis reports from them recommending "continued use" of oils other outfits would say was only fit for disposal.



I'll probably take some heat for that statement, but it's my opinion...



As to synthetics in the Cummins, I can only say I have seen a significant number of switch-overs from conventional oil to synthetic, where the wear numbers DID increase - perhaps not radically, but increase just the same...



Yeah, I'll take heat from THAT opinion, as well... ;):-laf



Gary, it does not matter what you say. People will disagree with you solely because it is you saying it. You typically have all the documentation in the world to support your findings, and then a ton of people will disagree with you anyway!
 
Gary, it does not matter what you say. People will disagree with you solely because it is you saying it. You typically have all the documentation in the world to support your findings, and then a ton of people will disagree with you anyway!



YUP, you are correct. Been there and done that - all a part of life and living, I suppose.
 
I might add that this is related to their superior fuel economy.
On that subject,I never got that great of fuel economy on my '99 pre or post mods. The '07's doing actually better than the '99. Some guys must be descendants of Pinnochio with some of these mileage claims. :)
 
On that subject,I never got that great of fuel economy on my '99 pre or post mods. The '07's doing actually better than the '99. Some guys must be descendants of Pinnochio with some of these mileage claims. :)



That or they are reporting what the overhead lie-o-meter says! :-laf
 
On that subject,I never got that great of fuel economy on my '99 pre or post mods. The '07's doing actually better than the '99. Some guys must be descendants of Pinnochio with some of these mileage claims. :)



Driving styles and loads/terrain all figure in on the MPG issue. Dunno what most guys would consider "average" or "good" MPG, but I was always happy with what the old '91 delivered, as well as the current '02, which is pretty much identical. I totally ignore the lying overhead MPG display, and hand figured, get a consistent 22+ MPG driving unloaded in mixed mountain/flatland driving - and an average 16+ MPG towing the 5er in similar terrain and speeds. And, those speeds are typically just a hair over 60 MPH...
 
I don't know if an 03 or 04 would get better mileage than my 07, but my 07 does get better than my 97 did. About 1mpg better all around driving and 2-3 mpg on the highway. Didn't expect that when I bought it but i'm not complaining. :-laf

Will
 
I use Herguth labs in Vallejo California. I have had oil and fuel samples done and they do not seem biased at all. They report what they find and have never tried to sell anything additional, including more sampling. Oil samples are $29. 00 and fuel have been $25-$400 depending on what I'm looking for.
 
I'd sorta recommend against Oil Analyzers - they SEEM to be somehow associated with Amsoil, and I've seen analysis reports from them recommending "continued use" of oils other outfits would say was only fit for disposal.



I'll probably take some heat for that statement, but it's my opinion...



As to synthetics in the Cummins, I can only say I have seen a significant number of switch-overs from conventional oil to synthetic, where the wear numbers DID increase - perhaps not radically, but increase just the same...



Yeah, I'll take heat from THAT opinion, as well... ;):-laf



I'll agree with you.



I am an amsoil dealer and use their oils in everything but the Cummins. I drive a lot of short trips and like to change my oil fairly often.



I sent some samples in while running Amsoil and was never very happy with the results.
 
Gary,

For you and others on thiis subject, I would like to inform you that "Oil Analyzers" is simply a tracking department of Amsoil Inc. that keeps track of the oil analysis reports. IN actuality every oil analysis sent to "Oil Analyzers" is done by "Stavely Services", who have oil analysis labs in different parts of the U. S. You can go to their web site from here:

Staveley Services North America



Amsoil Inc. does not have the kind of equipement to do oil analysis, but they do have a laboratory.
 
Gary,

For you and others on thiis subject, I would like to inform you that "Oil Analyzers" is simply a tracking department of Amsoil Inc. that keeps track of the oil analysis reports. IN actuality every oil analysis sent to "Oil Analyzers" is done by "Stavely Services", who have oil analysis labs in different parts of the U. S. You can go to their web site from here:

Staveley Services North America



Amsoil Inc. does not have the kind of equipement to do oil analysis, but they do have a laboratory.



That's sort of puzzling Wayne - are you saying that oil samples customers are sending to "Oil Analyzers", is in some way handled by Amsoil, at least in the paperwork? Sorta confirms my assertion that there IS at least a form of connection between Amsoil and Oil Analyzers - does Amsoil handle ALL the analysis reports for Staveley, or only the ones customers THINK are going directly to some outfit called "Oil Analyzers"? Is there, in fact, NO actual oil analysis company called "Oil Analyzers"? :confused:



IF so, that seems REAL weird - I would personally prefer to send my samples directly to the outfit DOING the analysis, AND all the paperwork, without the middleman - too much chance for unnecessary confusion, loss, and manipulation of final reports... :rolleyes:
 
Oil analysis from Cummins dealer

I buy my analysis services from my local Cummins dealer. Figured they would not fight their own buddies' conclusion if s**t ever hit the fan :-laf.



I have a very positive experience with Amsoil in engine, transmission & hydraulics (noise reduction, longer drain intervals, better milleage, easier starts in cold weather, good reports :cool: ). In my 1996, 2003 & 2006 CTD as well as my 1999 Hurlimann tractor.



- Dan
 
That's sort of puzzling Wayne - are you saying that oil samples customers are sending to "Oil Analyzers", is in some way handled by Amsoil, at least in the paperwork? Sorta confirms my assertion that there IS at least a form of connection between Amsoil and Oil Analyzers - does Amsoil handle ALL the analysis reports for Staveley, or only the ones customers THINK are going directly to some outfit called "Oil Analyzers"? Is there, in fact, NO actual oil analysis company called "Oil Analyzers"?



IF so, that seems REAL weird - I would personally prefer to send my samples directly to the outfit DOING the analysis, AND all the paperwork, without the middleman - too much chance for unnecessary confusion, loss, and manipulation of final reports... [end-Quote]

Gary,

As stated, Amsoil only looks at the reports from "Staveley Services", and logs them into a data base for tracking, then sends a report to the customer.



Amsoil does sell the Analysis kits, which include the necessary paperwork. The person that buys the kit, then sends it to the nearest Lab for their region. In my case it is in Salt Lake Cty. I can get on the "Oil Analyzers" web page and look up any of my analysis, however I do need a user name and a password inorder to do that.



Now I must say this. THere are some that may say the "Oil Analyzers" are biased, because they are affiliated with "Staveley Services", but look at it this way. IF "Oil Analyzers" or "Stavely Services" were to give out a report that was not correct. What do you think this would do for the Company if an engine or any other piece of Equipment failed due to the oil being out of "Specification", yet the Analysis was reported as "Continue use"? I don't think they would be around for long!



Wayne
 
One thing I want to point out is the fact that each engine is unique and will react in its own way to the oil used in it. Just because Wayne had good UOAs on his oil for XXXXX miles doesn't mean that same oil will provide similar numbers in another truck. I know of one individual in this very thread that had issues with Amsoil in their CTD, and that proves my point... each rig is different. What works for one, doesn't necessarily work for another. Generally synthetics are thought to provide extended service, not less wear, than conventionals.



Another thing is it takes fuel to make HP, and typically hand calculated mileages will show a trend of decreasing mileage in the CTD throughout its evolution in the dodge truck, with the latest engines getting the poorest mileages. Look at any forum... typically a 12-valve gets mid 20s, a 2nd gen 24-valve gets high teens/low 20s, and the 3rd gens are typically in the bottom getting upper teens at best. I've personally seen more reports of poor mileage with the 3rd gens than in any of the other generations of CTD.



As for your results... you have ONE analysis, and that by itself is not enough to judge the condition of the oil. A UOA isn't really providing the "wear" of the engine, but only the condition of the oil... there are a lot of things that affect the wear of the engine, of which are outside that of the oil.
 
Generally synthetics are thought to provide extended service, not less wear, than conventionals.

Steve,

If you look at ANY reputable test on wear, a "True" Synthetic will reduce wear, in some cases as much as 60 percent! THis is a true proven fact!



Here is an excerpt from an SAE Paper, written in 1995:



A Synthetic Diesel Engine Oil with Extended

Laboratory Test and Field Service Performance






ABSTRACT



This paper describes the engine test and extended oil drain field performance of new synthetic engine oil technology developed for use in North American low-emission heavy-duty Diesel engines. The resulting formulation utilizes an advanced additive system specifically tailored for synthetic base stocks which exceeds current industry and engine builder targets in critical performance tests. Use of synthetic base stocks allows the formulation of engine oils with a unique combination of performance characteristics, which include meeting SAE 5W-40 viscosity requirements for cold starting benefits while maintaining low volatility loss at high temperature for oil consumption control. In addition to meeting API CG-4, CF-4F, CF-2, CF, SH and EC requirements, this technology has also demonstrated exceptional performance in extended-length Diesel and gasoline engine tests. Furthermore, it has also performed very well in extended service interval field tests.

At drain intervals up to four times those normally recommended, excellent engine wear, deposit protection, and oil consumption control have been consistently demonstrated. Additionally, fuel economy benefits in excess of 4% relative to SAE 15W-40 conventional mineral oils have been documented.



Wear Protection Critical wear areas (e. g. valve train components, piston rings, and cylinder liners) showed significantly lower levels of wear in units operating on (SYN-DEO) SYNTHETIC DIESEL OIL. Every fire ring from all three SYN-DEO units had substantial amounts of chrome plating remaining.



In comparison, the reference units had less chrome overall and, on some areas of the fire rings, essentially no chrome plating remained. THe SYN-DEO units had approximately one fourth or less of the cylinder liner bore polishing of the reference oil. Additionaly, the SYN-DEO units had significantly less visable oil control ring wear then the units using the Reference oil (CF-4) petroleum.



Remember, this was in 1995.



Wayne
 
Wayne: Post this on BITOG, and you'll be sunk really quick.



I've already been down this road... it doesn't provide any more significant wear protection over a conventional, it only protects better in adverse conditions (which most people never see). I can show you Amsoil UOAs that aren't as good as my Rotella UOAs... if they protect better, why aren't ALL the UOAs better than EVERY conventional UOA??



I'm not arguing with you Wayne, I believe what the knowledgeable people at BITOG over one person's 10+ year old quotes.
 
then the units using the Reference oil (CF-4) petroleum.



Remember, this was in 1995.



Wayne



Yes, absolutely - and the above comparison was done *13 years ago* against *CF-4*, NOT the far more recent and improved CI-4+, and PERHAPS, the CJ series oils...



Question is, what similar improvements has the Amsoil made - and are there any more RECENT test comparisons with, and against the later stuff? ;)



Oil technology hasn't been standing still for conventional oils - how about Amsoil? :)
 
I used to use Oil Analyzers Inc on my 03 Powerstroke. Every analysis that came back said good for continued use (5+ UOA's). I had no knowledge of anything at that time and only a bit more now but anyhow, I decided to try Blackstone. On the first analysis they told me that it appeared that I was having injector issues. Very high wear metals and lots of fuel in the oil. I took the truck to the dealer and this was in the neighbor hood of 98K miles on the truck. Oh, and about six months previous I had four injectors (2,4,6,&7) replaced and a blown turbo.



Continuing, the dealer confirmed Blackstones findings. The dealer ended up replacing the other four injectors (1,3,5,&8) and other turbo and fuel pump.



On my 06 CTD my first UOA with Blackstone and switch to Amsoil 3000 HD the results were not good either. Each analysis got better though until my last one which I let it go too long. Copper is real high.



Short story long I will probably continue to use Amsoil but will never send another sample to Oil Analyzers.
 
For me, the greatest real world advantage of synthetics, including Amsoil, is not in any reduced engine wear overall - but rather it's far greater viscosity stability in extreme temperatures, as well as it's long term stability in storage of items like my Honda 2000i generator that sits for long periods between uses.



The often advanced notion that you MUST use synthetics for extended oil drain intervals is one Wayne and I spar over on occasion - I've done my own extended drain test using Delo 400, and with excellent results out to 20K miles, with blessings from Blackstone Labs to keep on using it - but the blackness of the oil abused my conscience, so having proven my point - at least to myself - I dumped it, and now run the Delo for 12K or 12 months, whichever comes first. I'd do the same regardless of WHAT oil I was using, including Amsoil - it just pains my wallet less to do it with Delo! ;)



I would NEVER want anyone to misunderstand my comments where Wayne is concerned - he fully believes in the product he sells, he is a true gentleman, and as far as I'm concerned, a great asset to the TDR Moderator group.
 
Back to the beginning of this thread I'd suggest JCockerill give the Amsoil one more change before passing final judgement on it. Changing oil brands and types can raise wear metal numbers, at least in my own experience.

Also given the extra stresses of the 600 Series I would go with the 15w40 Amsoil instead of the thinner 5w30.

I use Amsoil not so much for great wear numbers but for the extra measure of protection and viscosity stability Gary was alluding to. I want a little peace of mind that my oil will give me a little more protection for the times I accidentally get the pyro up to and maybe beyond 1200F while towing, or I don't let the turbo cool off much before shutdown, or I'm firing up on a cold morning without being plugged in. Sure a Cummins can start at pretty cold temps with dino in the pan, but how much longer are you waiting for that molasses to start circulating after you fire up?

Vaughn
 
Wayne: Post this on BITOG, and you'll be sunk really quick.



I've already been down this road... it doesn't provide any more significant wear protection over a conventional, it only protects better in adverse conditions (which most people never see). I can show you Amsoil UOAs that aren't as good as my Rotella UOAs... if they protect better, why aren't ALL the UOAs better than EVERY conventional UOA??



I'm not arguing with you Wayne, I believe what the knowledgeable people at BITOG over one person's 10+ year old quotes.



Steve,

I don't need to go to BITOG, I go to the manufacture of the oils. They know what they will do. I just went to Castrol Synpower, and here is what they said:

The Aging Standard



Conventional motor oil has been the benchmark in engine lubrication since Carl Benz invented the car in the late 1800s. Over the years, oil manufacturers have improved the refining processes to remove impurities. Still, mineral-based oil, even in its most pure form, remains somewhat imperfect.



This liquid lubricant performs two primary functions inside your engine. It reduces friction between moving parts, and it dissipates heat created by the combustion process. At normal operating temperatures, conventional oil protects the internal workings of your engine. This ability to protect as well, however, when engine temperatures rise or fall below the norm (as you would find upon start up, during spirited driving or in extreme climates) is limited because at lower temperatures conventional oil becomes thick, or more viscous. In this state it may have difficulty reaching critical components. At higher temperatures, the same oil often becomes too thin to adequately coat and effectively protect moving parts.



Synthetic oil, on the other hand, has a higher tolerance for temperature extremes, thereby maintaining a more consistent viscosity. This means your engine is better protected overall regardless of engine operating temperatures.



Size Does Matter



Synthetic oil is also more resistant to thermal and oxidative breakdown, processes that occur when oil is exposed to the severe conditions inside an engine. When motor oil begins to break down, it is essentially burned away, which causes it to lose its ability to protect valuable engine parts and dissipate heat.



The reason for synthetic oil's increased resilience stems from its uniform molecular structure. Conventional base oil is composed of several sizes and shapes of hydrocarbon molecules. This variation brings with it a range of evaporation, oxygenation, and burn points. Included in the mixture are some comparatively unstable molecules, some of which break down very soon after the conventional oil is poured into your car. This forces the remaining oil to work harder.



To overcome the problem of thermal and oxidative breakdown, synthetic base oils are created through a series of chemical synthesis. The starting materials may be a mixture of relatively pure small molecules. In this case the small molecules are combined to make new, larger molecules. Alternatively the starting material may be a broad mixture of larger molecules. In this case the large molecules are broken down and rearranged. The result is motor oil that is composed solely of pre-selected similarly sized molecules devoid of any weak links that inhibit performance. The new molecules are specifically shaped to offer optimum lubrication and maximum resistance to thermal breakdown.



Contaminant Containment



In addition to reducing friction and dissipating heat, motor oil also captures and removes contaminants, prevents sludge and cleans away potentially damaging deposits and varnish. Oil additives in both synthetic and conventional oils, accounting for approximately 15 percent of the final solution, work to perform these tasks inside your engine.



When compared with conventional oil, synthetics offer increased performance in these areas. The reasons here are twofold: First, synthetic oil is virtually free from contaminants as opposed to refined mineral oil, which may include contaminants such as sulphur. Synthetic oils also generally include higher quality additives for improved performance and greater resistance to consumption versus their conventional oil alternatives.



Manufacturer Recommended



In order to ensure optimum performance in some of today's highly advanced engines, some automakers have begun recommending, and even requiring, synthetic oils in their cars. Mercedes and BMW are just a couple of the nameplates that recognize the incredible benefits of using this premium lubricant. It's likely that, in time, all auto manufacturers will require that synthetic oil be used for regular maintenance of their vehicles.



Compared to conventional oils, SynPower:



Provides excellent engine cleanliness through superior sludge and varnish protection

Helps reduce engine wear at high temperatures with improved viscosity stability

Provides outstanding high-temperature protection under severe driving conditions

Provides superior cold-temperature protection through faster oil flow at start-up

Provides more durable anti-wear additives which remain in the oil longer for outstanding protection against friction and wear Helps maintain fuel efficiency for the life of the oil (applies to 5W30 and 10W30 grades)

Is fully compatible with all conventional and leading synthetic motor oils

Meets the performance requirements of most naturally aspirated, turbocharged and supercharged cars operating in North America.



I find it rather interesting and even a bit funny. 35 years ago, there was a Company saying the very same thing, but nobody would beleive in it!
 
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