I WAS AT THE DC DEALER TRYING TO GET THEM TO REPLACE MY TURBO FOR OIL IN THE INTER COOLER. THE MECHANIC CHECKED THE AIR FILTER FIRST THING TO SEE IF IT WAS DIRTY, NOT. AND TOLD ME ABOUT ENGINE FAILURES CUMMINS DETERMINED WERE RELATED TO K&N AIR FILTERS, TOO MUCH DIRT PASSED THRU IT. JUST THOUGHT YOU WOULD LIKE TO KNOW. TBOB
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k&n air filter
- Thread starter TBOB
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This topic was covered many times here. The DC dealer i bought my truck from SELLS K&N kilters. I have had one my truck for 35k miles and all my samples have come back fine with no high Silica ratings. K&N has been around for over 20 years, if the filters were defective and caused engine damage, they would have dissapeard long ago.
Ram4Sam
TDR MEMBER
the straight scoop for me is...
I put my K&N in the first month I had it. Almost two years and 20,000 miles later(oil changed every 5,000), oil analysis came back at 5 ppm silicone. That is good enough for me. Just be sure to grease the suction side of the filter if you use the stock box.
Sam
I put my K&N in the first month I had it. Almost two years and 20,000 miles later(oil changed every 5,000), oil analysis came back at 5 ppm silicone. That is good enough for me. Just be sure to grease the suction side of the filter if you use the stock box.
Sam
All of you K&N users, just do this one test. Hold the filter up to a good light. Do you see any light coming through?? If so, then dirt is getting through. No ifs ands or buts.
My oil analysis came back fine too, but I saw grit in the post filter area and on the turbo blades. Sooo many more of us have also. That is why we went to the BHAF. Some went to Amsoils filters. The rings on our engines are very very good, and will keep almost all dirt and grit from passing through into the lower part of our engines, into the oil. The dirt will however destroy your the walls, valves, and rings over time. The risk is yours.
Do searches in the parts and accessory section for extensive debates on this.
I went to the BHAF and havent seen a bit of dust since, and wish I had thrown away the K&N long long before.
BTW, I trried sealing the edges with grease, then silicon, neither worked. The problem was the porous nature of the K&N. If it is the extra air flow you are worried about, the BHAF flows much more.
My oil analysis came back fine too, but I saw grit in the post filter area and on the turbo blades. Sooo many more of us have also. That is why we went to the BHAF. Some went to Amsoils filters. The rings on our engines are very very good, and will keep almost all dirt and grit from passing through into the lower part of our engines, into the oil. The dirt will however destroy your the walls, valves, and rings over time. The risk is yours.
Do searches in the parts and accessory section for extensive debates on this.
I went to the BHAF and havent seen a bit of dust since, and wish I had thrown away the K&N long long before.
BTW, I trried sealing the edges with grease, then silicon, neither worked. The problem was the porous nature of the K&N. If it is the extra air flow you are worried about, the BHAF flows much more.
Ram4Sam
TDR MEMBER
SDalton,
"The rings on our engines are very very good, and will keep almost all dirt and grit from passing through into the lower part of our engines, into the oil. "
Never heard that one. If that is true, why does a healthy diesel engine have so much blow by coming out of the crankcase hose?
Also, if that was true, why does an engine with a bad injector end up with the oil contaminated with fuel?
I have read here that some people with big injectors and/or fueling boxes claim their oil darkens sooner because of soot from the extra fuel. Where does this come from if not past the rings?
Inquiring minds want to know!
Sam
"The rings on our engines are very very good, and will keep almost all dirt and grit from passing through into the lower part of our engines, into the oil. "
Never heard that one. If that is true, why does a healthy diesel engine have so much blow by coming out of the crankcase hose?
Also, if that was true, why does an engine with a bad injector end up with the oil contaminated with fuel?
I have read here that some people with big injectors and/or fueling boxes claim their oil darkens sooner because of soot from the extra fuel. Where does this come from if not past the rings?
Inquiring minds want to know!
Sam
Hey Sdalton, if you hold a piece of glass up to the light, do you see light coming through??? But is dirt coming through? No, same idea as K&N. The oil traps dirt and dust as it passes through, just because you can see light through does not mean anything. I assure if you put a light in a BHAF you will see light shining through the paper too. The paper is porus, if it was'nt, your engine would'nt run. All filters let some dirt through, there is no way to stop all the dirt. The larger openings in the cotton filter material are made effective by the oil on the filter.
The only facts you need are oil sample results. They come up showing no problems with dirt and silica and i know of ALOT of Cummins and Fords that have had K&N filters in them for well over a hundred thousand miles and had no problems or preamture bearing failure. There is no problem using K&N and AFE filters as long as you dont over oil them. That is what there is to be concerned about.
The only facts you need are oil sample results. They come up showing no problems with dirt and silica and i know of ALOT of Cummins and Fords that have had K&N filters in them for well over a hundred thousand miles and had no problems or preamture bearing failure. There is no problem using K&N and AFE filters as long as you dont over oil them. That is what there is to be concerned about.
EMDDIESEL,
Your relying on a DC dealer for good technical info??
Your dealer doesnt sell K and N's cause they are good filters they are selling them because they make a good profit!!
Not only does the KN filter trap dirt in the oil saturated filter media, but it also lets that oil with dirt pass into your Turbo, intake and intercooler system, this product also clogs your MAP sensor, and IAT sensor over time showing your engines ECM false readings which sometimes can throw your engine into a limp mode.
I have seen these KN's first hand, and have seen a truck in limp mode because of one, and it had the KN and a clogged MAP sensor.
Every KN equipped truck I have seen had a dirty Impellor and Turbo inlet, this means shortened Turbo life.
So the KN is such a great filter? Maybe it is for a naturally aspirated engine, but we have Turbos which like to SUCK air in at a high rate.
I run the BHAF which does not dirty my turbo, or get it oily.
--Justin
Your relying on a DC dealer for good technical info??
Your dealer doesnt sell K and N's cause they are good filters they are selling them because they make a good profit!!
Not only does the KN filter trap dirt in the oil saturated filter media, but it also lets that oil with dirt pass into your Turbo, intake and intercooler system, this product also clogs your MAP sensor, and IAT sensor over time showing your engines ECM false readings which sometimes can throw your engine into a limp mode.
I have seen these KN's first hand, and have seen a truck in limp mode because of one, and it had the KN and a clogged MAP sensor.
Every KN equipped truck I have seen had a dirty Impellor and Turbo inlet, this means shortened Turbo life.
So the KN is such a great filter? Maybe it is for a naturally aspirated engine, but we have Turbos which like to SUCK air in at a high rate.
I run the BHAF which does not dirty my turbo, or get it oily.
--Justin
Boys,
It's startin' to git a little warm in here... .....
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion/perspective.
And now for my perspective:
I've used K & N air filters in my motors since 1984... ..... NO COMPLAINTS.
I've learned when/how to clean the filters properly and how to re-oil them... ..... LESS IS MORE HERE. Allow time for filter to dry B4 oiling also a biggie.
I understand how they work and why.
I've obtained the formula from K & N to figure what the C. F. M. requirements are for a specific engine.
The RE-0880 flows more than enough air... ... . if you want more protection the 25-0880 is a pre-filter cover/sock... ... . keeps the filter even cleaner.
I just changed the Oil, Oil Filter, Fuel Filter, Greased front end..... all 3 Zerk, Rotated Tires and checked the spare... ... ... and I checked my turbo... ... no grit... ... no grime... ... no oil on hose or blades... ... ... .
Sooooo, in closing, I will continue to use my K & N air filter on my Cummins and you may use what ever air filter you wish.
Excuse me now while I go dig this incredibly large hole in the TDR back yard to bury the horse we all just beat to death.
Eric
It's startin' to git a little warm in here... .....
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion/perspective.
And now for my perspective:
I've used K & N air filters in my motors since 1984... ..... NO COMPLAINTS.
I've learned when/how to clean the filters properly and how to re-oil them... ..... LESS IS MORE HERE. Allow time for filter to dry B4 oiling also a biggie.
I understand how they work and why.
I've obtained the formula from K & N to figure what the C. F. M. requirements are for a specific engine.
The RE-0880 flows more than enough air... ... . if you want more protection the 25-0880 is a pre-filter cover/sock... ... . keeps the filter even cleaner.
I just changed the Oil, Oil Filter, Fuel Filter, Greased front end..... all 3 Zerk, Rotated Tires and checked the spare... ... ... and I checked my turbo... ... no grit... ... no grime... ... no oil on hose or blades... ... ... .
Sooooo, in closing, I will continue to use my K & N air filter on my Cummins and you may use what ever air filter you wish.
Excuse me now while I go dig this incredibly large hole in the TDR back yard to bury the horse we all just beat to death.
Eric
Want to see a truck with K&N and clean turbo inpellers?
Come look at mine, its had the K&N since about 1000miles and now at 45K, the turbo blades are shiny clean. Course thats only 45K----my last CTD had the K&N on it for 120K, not only no problems, but after reading the posts on here about dirt, I kept an eye on the turbo impellers (I remove the air hose every oil change to change the filter so its easy to inspect) ---they were never dirty or sooty, but than that was only 120K miles.
I too have seen K&N displays and Dodge dealers----in fact I first started using K&N on my '84 Ford (only ran that one 130K so again not much of a test) after seeing them touted at a dealership.
Vaughn
Come look at mine, its had the K&N since about 1000miles and now at 45K, the turbo blades are shiny clean. Course thats only 45K----my last CTD had the K&N on it for 120K, not only no problems, but after reading the posts on here about dirt, I kept an eye on the turbo impellers (I remove the air hose every oil change to change the filter so its easy to inspect) ---they were never dirty or sooty, but than that was only 120K miles.
I too have seen K&N displays and Dodge dealers----in fact I first started using K&N on my '84 Ford (only ran that one 130K so again not much of a test) after seeing them touted at a dealership.
Vaughn
I cleaned my K&N filter recently after over 40,000 miles. There was not one speck of dirt on my turbo blades. I've heard of others having problems, but it appears mine is working as designed. I may start checking it more frequently. It doesn't take a lot of effort to clean and oil them.
I had dirt/grit/grime on my turbo blades with the OEM filter.
I cleaned the turbo when I installed the K&N, and it's still clean, intake tube is clean and not oily either.
Silicon was 5PPM last change.
I grease the clean side lip too.
I would think the same about the holes but the examination and lab tests indicate it is doing it's job very well.
Still not 100% sure about it but it is still in the truck.
If anyone wants one I picked up two used ones (like the one I have installed) for $20 each. You can have the extra for $20 plus ship. This is a one time deal.
I cleaned the turbo when I installed the K&N, and it's still clean, intake tube is clean and not oily either.
Silicon was 5PPM last change.
I grease the clean side lip too.
I would think the same about the holes but the examination and lab tests indicate it is doing it's job very well.
Still not 100% sure about it but it is still in the truck.
If anyone wants one I picked up two used ones (like the one I have installed) for $20 each. You can have the extra for $20 plus ship. This is a one time deal.
Ram4Sam, If you know anything about particle sizes you will realize that the size of soot particulates and fuel are much much smaller than most any silicone dirt particles.
EDMDIESEL, Glass vs. porous filter comparison?? Come on now. That doesnt even rate a response. As far as all filters being porous, they are. But, to what degree?? Most paper air filters let almost no light through, not so with the K&N. You can see large holes with that filter. The simplest of minds should be able to figure out that when you have a hole that size, particles that size will go through, no matter if the filter is oiled or not. The oil helps some, but not enough. The K&N is a single pleat filter. If it were spongy, or had several pleats, then the oiling might be more effective. The oil on the K&N helps it some, but not enough.
I did oil analysises and both times I was well below silica levels. This was while the turbo blade had oil and grit all over them, and gritty dust in the air hose post K&N filter. This was even after sealing the edges around the filter. After replacing the K&N with the BHAF there was no grit, no oil on the turbo blade, and better throttle response.
The only way I would ever use a K&N filter would be with a foam prefilter attached.
You people can try to rationalize around the grit in the system all you want, and having good oil analysis, but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to but 2 and 2 together. DIRT PAST THE FILTER IS BAD, NO MATTER WHAT THE OIL ANALYSIS SAYS. If that dirt doesnt make it to the engine, then how much is trapped by the intercooler??
EDMDIESEL, Glass vs. porous filter comparison?? Come on now. That doesnt even rate a response. As far as all filters being porous, they are. But, to what degree?? Most paper air filters let almost no light through, not so with the K&N. You can see large holes with that filter. The simplest of minds should be able to figure out that when you have a hole that size, particles that size will go through, no matter if the filter is oiled or not. The oil helps some, but not enough. The K&N is a single pleat filter. If it were spongy, or had several pleats, then the oiling might be more effective. The oil on the K&N helps it some, but not enough.
I did oil analysises and both times I was well below silica levels. This was while the turbo blade had oil and grit all over them, and gritty dust in the air hose post K&N filter. This was even after sealing the edges around the filter. After replacing the K&N with the BHAF there was no grit, no oil on the turbo blade, and better throttle response.
The only way I would ever use a K&N filter would be with a foam prefilter attached.
You people can try to rationalize around the grit in the system all you want, and having good oil analysis, but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to but 2 and 2 together. DIRT PAST THE FILTER IS BAD, NO MATTER WHAT THE OIL ANALYSIS SAYS. If that dirt doesnt make it to the engine, then how much is trapped by the intercooler??
Ram4Sam
TDR MEMBER
Rocket science 101...
SD, you mean those monster sized dirt molecules can't get past the rings
You are probably right, they are just piling up on top of the pistons and someday I'll have to clean them out.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to seal an intake track either. There isn't any gook on my turbo blades or dust in the intake hose. This would be why the oil analysis comes back clean.
Using your 2 plus 2 math, if there is no dirt in the oil and no dirt in the intake tract, it must be doing it's job. Seems pretty simple to me.
"You people can try to rationalize around the grit in the system all you want"
Why would anybody do this?
" but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to but 2 and 2 together. "
See, we do agree!
Sam
SD, you mean those monster sized dirt molecules can't get past the rings
You are probably right, they are just piling up on top of the pistons and someday I'll have to clean them out. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to seal an intake track either. There isn't any gook on my turbo blades or dust in the intake hose. This would be why the oil analysis comes back clean.
Using your 2 plus 2 math, if there is no dirt in the oil and no dirt in the intake tract, it must be doing it's job. Seems pretty simple to me.
"You people can try to rationalize around the grit in the system all you want"
Why would anybody do this?
" but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to but 2 and 2 together. "
See, we do agree!
Sam
Last edited:
honest.............no foolin'
While waiting for my CTD to be serviced @ a local Cummins repair facility I wandered over to an area where the tech's were preparing BIG Cummins marine engines for shipment and installation. Lo and behold I saw that each one had a K&N open element air filter! I asked the tech and he said that unless specified by the customer, all their marine engines come with K&N's from the factory! I saw about 8 engines there and sure enough they all had the K&N. I assume the marine application would be a less dusty enviornment than for our trucks but still... ... ..... they had K&N's on them all... ... ... ..... from the factory.
While waiting for my CTD to be serviced @ a local Cummins repair facility I wandered over to an area where the tech's were preparing BIG Cummins marine engines for shipment and installation. Lo and behold I saw that each one had a K&N open element air filter! I asked the tech and he said that unless specified by the customer, all their marine engines come with K&N's from the factory! I saw about 8 engines there and sure enough they all had the K&N. I assume the marine application would be a less dusty enviornment than for our trucks but still... ... ..... they had K&N's on them all... ... ... ..... from the factory.
honest.............no foolin'
While waiting for my CTD to be serviced @ a local Cummins repair facility I wandered over to an area where the tech's were preparing BIG Cummins marine engines for shipment and installation. Lo and behold I saw that each one had a K&N open element air filter! I asked the tech and he said that unless specified by the customer, all their marine engines come with K&N's from the factory! I saw about 8 engines there and sure enough they all had the K&N. I assume the marine application would be a less dusty enviornment than for our trucks but still... ... ..... they had K&N's on them all... ... ... ..... from the factory.
While waiting for my CTD to be serviced @ a local Cummins repair facility I wandered over to an area where the tech's were preparing BIG Cummins marine engines for shipment and installation. Lo and behold I saw that each one had a K&N open element air filter! I asked the tech and he said that unless specified by the customer, all their marine engines come with K&N's from the factory! I saw about 8 engines there and sure enough they all had the K&N. I assume the marine application would be a less dusty enviornment than for our trucks but still... ... ..... they had K&N's on them all... ... ... ..... from the factory.
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