2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission K & N Strikes again!

[HBarlow]

A friend of mine who formerly worked in the service department of a Dodge dealer has told me several times of seeing late model low mileage Dodges come in with owner complaints of excessive oil use and blowby. He said they lifted the hood, removed the top of the air filter box, found a K&N filter, entered the facts in the service computer, and drove the truck out of the shop and called the owner to come and get it.

Behating, a TDR member or perhaps former member, once likened the filter abilities of a K&N filter to a door screen.

 

[HHhuntitall]

MOST of what I work on is close enough to stock to keep the OEM filter..... but there are some... . They'd try to swallow the stock air filter if it was left in there... ... . :-laf My '97 is included in that number. It'll peg a 50lb boost guage in the blink of an eye, and keep pulling. I'm not sure what it'll do, but it's wicked. I don't drive it loaded much in the summer..... There's just not enough radiator!!! I use a BHAF out of a Caterpiller Track hoe, combined with an assembly I made... . It works good. As I stated earlier, I mark all the trucks I service with a light coat of grease in the housing, so I can see if there have been any leaks in the filter. This particular filter is basically twice the factory surface area in size, just in a radial configuration. I really want to remote mount it, but I've not gotten the time..... I don't think it's worth the effort, either... . BUT, that's not to say I won't eventually do it.



As for K&N, well, I feel better if nothing else. IF anyone were to do a Google or major search engine search, maybe they'll see this thread. If K & N doesn't like it, they can pay to rebuilt the engine, and I'll politely ask Steve to take it down... ... doubt that's gonna happen...

 

[HBarlow]

We can be sure its not going to happen. Lets turn the issue around and ask this question:

Can anyone offer proof that K&N has EVER paid for an engine trashed by their screen door filters?

I'll never understand why an ordinary Cummins owner would ever want one. The OEM filter has been proven in tests run by Joe Donnelly to provide more than adequate air flow up to about 450 hp. For power levels beyond that an improved flow filter is probably required and justified but it would not be K&N if it were my truck. I would prefer a home made air box that would parallel two standard Fleetguards.

 

[HHhuntitall]

:shakehead: I don't get it either. When you trust a guy enough to let him wrench on your truck, but not enough to listen to him about your filters, WTH? I think this experience is a real eye opener to him. Expensive, too. Sometimes, the only way to reach a guy is through his wallet... ... I bet I can throw that filter away, now!! He thinks his great mileage is due to it, but I mentioned to him, "What did you save? You're gonna have over 10 times what the filters and mileage paid off in repairs!!" He got quiet then changed the subject..... It's hard to argue with the pieces right there in front of you.



Curiously, I want to run the numbers..... let's see, maybe 2mpg gain? 4mpg gain? Soooo, even at current prices, say $3. 68gal, getting 20mph costs you $0. 184 a mile. At 22mpg that goes to $. 167, and 24mpg, it's $. 153... ... so $. 017 and $. 031 gain, if you gain 4mpg... ..... At what? $45 a K&N Filter? It takes 1451. 61 miles to pay for the filter, then you're making money!!! OH, wait, let's figure engine repairs, first... . The engine will run... what, 400k average miles? Usually the trucks get worn out around then if you work them offroad pretty hard..... lets use that number 400k, as it's double what this engine has made it..... so at 200k the engine goes down... . That's gonna be around $3000 to rebuild if you catch it quick..... or at least what I'm gonna charge to pull it, get it bored, sleeved, new bearings, piston, wristpin, etc... . Well, the first 96,7774. 19 miles after it paid for the filter are used to pay for the new engine in another 100k.



Ok, let's look at this at another direction. So if you ran the stock filter, and average 20mpg over the life of the truck, which is a high average, I know, you have paid $73,600 to get to 400k miles on the truck. So, by comparison, if you ran 400k using the K&N and had to rebuild the engine, let's look:



at 22mpg, that's $66,909 + $3000 to rebuild engine, and time down.

at 24mpg, that's $61333. 32 + $3000 for engine and time down.



Well, those numbers don't look TOO bad. But then, what if you don't have an awesome mechanic like my customer does that can rebuild it so cheap? That's gonna cost you closer to $6000 for a reman'd engine, + installation..... so close to $7,500. With that number, you lose money at 2mpg, but a short gain at 4, not counting your down time. It's taken me 3 months to get to it. There are others in front of it. And to even CONSIDER making those kinds of mileage gain, you're gonna have to run the truck down the highway at cruise speeds..... so I'm not sure how realistic those numbers really are!! They'd have to definitely be in the top of the spectrum..... both mileage and mpg increase.....



So, in conclusion, the only thing I can really think of is... ... ... ... . I do this too dang cheap!!!

 

[HBarlow]

I'll keep you in mind if I ever need an engine rebuild but in the meantime, I believe about 10% of the fuel mileage claims I read on TDR and 0% of those I hear across the pump island in truck stops or in campgrounds. Ordinary honest people strangely feel a deep compulsion to exaggerate their fuel mileage. It is instinctive with many people.

I don't believe that running with no intake filter, a K&N filter, a chunk of door screen clamped over the horn, or an OEM filter will make a fractional difference in fuel mileage on a Cummins engine. A Cummins is a more like a heater than an air pump. It runs at low rpm using only a fraction of the air capacity that can flow in through the intake tract. It never runs faster than the redline of 3200 rpm and rarely that high. It is totally unnecessary to run it higher than 2700 to 2900 rpm where it makes max hp. At those engine speeds it never starves for air and is not like a gasoline engine that controls engine speed by restricting air flow.

Folks who grew up learning gasoline V8 performance tips from their fathers, uncles, big brothers, older guys in the neighborhood, or their buddies cannot outgrow trying to apply gasoline engine hop up theory to diesel engines even though many tell them it doesn't work that way.

 

[SRay]

HHHuntitall: maybe be cheaper to drop in a Perkins? Or some other diesel? A powerstroke perhaps? Leave all the good cummins to people who really respect, understand and care for them.

 

[Axtell3]

HHHuntitall: maybe be cheaper to drop in a Perkins? Or some other diesel? A powerstroke perhaps? Leave all the good cummins to people who really respect, understand and care for them.

Now that's just mean.

 

[SRay]

Axtell3: sorry, trying to be funny.

 

[Axtell3]

I knew that... hence the smiley.

 

[HHhuntitall]

HHHuntitall: maybe be cheaper to drop in a Perkins? Or some other diesel? A powerstroke perhaps? Leave all the good cummins to people who really respect, understand and care for them.

HA!!! THEN I really WILL have to work on 'em!!! :-laf

 

[SRay]

HHhuntitall: yup, that should keep you busy!

Also usually the perkins is worn out at around 6000-7000 hrs (180,000-220,000 miles est) so more work and $$$ for you.

 

[HHhuntitall]

... . depends on the Perkins. If it's not sleeved, yes, it's gone around 7,000hrs. The bearings just don't hold up. But if it's sleeved, I'm not sure, I guess they use a different spec on the bearings. I've seen them run 10k... ... didn't say they didn't use oil, but... All the old Massey Combines and tractors ran Perkins. I've got a handy little inline 6 in a 510 combine that would make a nice conversion..... Too bad their injection systems suck like a Hoover on 220v!! Then quit about as quick!!! :-laf Always something. I've got a little massey in a 205 tractor that I spent close to a grand on the pump... . Then my Lincoln Pipeliner 250D welder has a diesel leak on the pump... . and the alternator quit!!! Like I'm working with my sister's kids or something.....

 

[SRay]

HHHuntitall: that's funny. :-laf



I find perkins in some tractors to be rather smoky all the time. Not sure why

 

[twheat]

MOST of what I work on is close enough to stock to keep the OEM filter..... but there are some... . They'd try to swallow the stock air filter if it was left in there... ... . :-laf My '97 is included in that number. It'll peg a 50lb boost guage in the blink of an eye, and keep pulling. I'm not sure what it'll do, but it's wicked. I don't drive it loaded much in the summer..... There's just not enough radiator!!! I use a BHAF out of a Caterpiller Track hoe, combined with an assembly I made... . It works good. As I stated earlier, I mark all the trucks I service with a light coat of grease in the housing, so I can see if there have been any leaks in the filter. This particular filter is basically twice the factory surface area in size, just in a radial configuration. I really want to remote mount it, but I've not gotten the time..... I don't think it's worth the effort, either... . BUT, that's not to say I won't eventually do it.



As for K&N, well, I feel better if nothing else. IF anyone were to do a Google or major search engine search, maybe they'll see this thread. If K & N doesn't like it, they can pay to rebuilt the engine, and I'll politely ask Steve to take it down... ... doubt that's gonna happen...

Not to change the subject... How are the BHAF? I noticed a bunch of companies make them. Do you run one with an outerware? I've got an S&B intake in my rig now I'm thinking about ditching. I've read lots of stories like this and I think the dry filters are probably the best protection. I'd have to get an AFE torque tube for mine because my stock airbox with in the trash when I got the S&B. What's you thoughts?

 

[HHhuntitall]

I started out using the '93 air filters in my '96, somewhere around '97-98..... I then worked on a Cat loader that had a Wix 54233? (have to check that number, I think it's changed to 4233) I measured the filter, it worked, and I built a housing out of some sheet metal... ... interestingly enough, that was the same year AFE came out with their first replacement housing and filter... ... I've been running the filters for a long time. I rarely see any dirt coming through, and I keep grease smeared in the tube so I can see if any dirt does get in..... I change the filters every 10k, usually, but I've seen some that could run a lot longer..... Some guys have used a filter that has a boot on the bottom that slips into the rubber housing. Some have the filter clamped on the front of the turbo..... I usually sell my housing for $150, +filter(@$30), +installation. I need to build some more, I haven't built many in the last few years, as aftermarket stuff is so prolific. If you can find a good housing like the AFE, you might can use it with the BHAF... ... I'll try to get a pic of one of mine later today, if I can remember.