K&N users look at this

[gmorrison]

As a lube engineer I look at several hundred oil analysis results a week. Generally I can spot a K&N or other aftermarket air filtered vehicle a mile away. 90% of the time the K&N's do a great job of keeping bricks and birds out but that is about all. And yet in about 10% of cases, the K&N works just fine, depending on one's environment, driving and particular vehicle. The K&N issue is just not black and white. From my perspective I advise anyone switching to a K&N to first run a stock air filter oil anlaysis baseline, then switch to the K&N/other aftermarket and check oil analysis again. If *all* parameters are in alignment, fine. However, we can't just look at dirt (silicon). Spectrographic oil analysis is limited to 5 micron maximum particle size. If one lives in an area where the predominant dirt particle size falls in the 5 to 10 micron size, we will not see it reflected as elevated dirt (silicon) in the oil analysis results and the stock oil filter will not be capturing it either. However, it will reveal itself in increased wear metals.

Ideally when doing an air cleaner check one should run both a spectro and particle count. This will reveal *exactly* what is going on in all contaminant particle size spectrums and allows one to know absolutely what is going on in the engine.

The Number One cause of shortened engine life is dirt ingestion. 80% of the alerts I see each week are from dirt contamination. This is why I am so adament for the necessity of checking with oil analysis not only for the K&N but stock installations also. Many of the trucks HAVE leaky induction systems right from the factory and the increased restriction of the paper element DOES create higher silicon levels due to unfiltered air getting into the engine. Switching to a K&N gives the false appearance that the K&N is filtering better than paper when it is only masking the induction leak.

George Morrison, STLE CLS

 

[BFC]

Now if we could just get K&N to make a auto trans filter we could get a thread involving automatics, amsoil, and K&N filters LOL.

ROTFLMAO and then we should ask for dyno numbers!



Glenn

 

[cold Diesel]

I have run K&N filters in all my previous trucks with no problems at all. My diesel is so new that I still have the stock one in it though (only 6K miles). However I have also used them in all my quads and dirt bikes as well. The difference is that I, and everyone else I know, run a prefilter over the K&N filter. The prefilters are sold with the K&N's for dusty off road conditions, and I have always run one on my trucks as well. Just my . 02$

 

[John_P]

I am another TDR member that has used K&N Filters

in two different Dodge CTD trucks; a 92' and my current

96'. I have NEVER had any problems with their filters

and IF the Amsoil "test" is accurate then why do my

oil analysis' always come back within the "normal"

range??



Like "Don M", I have NEVER had silicon readings

above 2-3 PPM. I live in a coastal area where there

is sand flying on the beach roads almost all the time.

Beach sand is very fine sand. Also, like "cold diesel"

I run the K&N's in my sons "race prepped" (Duncan

Racing) Yamaha Banshee four wheelers. We have

never had an engine failure on these machines and

we run on some VERY dusty tracks!



As "Don M" said, "If they are installed and oiled

properly they work!"



---------

John_P

 

[Barry]

I have watched with interest this information Bad Mitten game for quite some time regarding the K&N air filters. Out of fear and concern I told my Amsoil dealer to get an air filter for me. Anyone want a like new K&N???????????

 

[DavidD]

I guess no one read morrisons reply or they just dont want to face the truth. I put a K&N in my 98 24v. at about 24,000mi when my first plug-in-power went in I put a K&N filter in. At 68,000 mi my turbo went to lunch. Under warranty but the first thing the machanic said was replace the K&N. My intake was dirty andd the bearings in the turbo had failed. I dont believe a filterthat you can look through and see light coming from the other side is enough for my engine. It your choice and my 2cts. Dave

 

[rrausch]

What follows is from Rick Blum, a K&N engineer, who I e-mailed for information about the AMsoil link.



The link did not work but I have seen all kinds of crazy Amsoil statements

in the past and have even heard from ex-Amsoil dealers that the charts they

have showing testing were never done; they are simply Excel spreadsheets

with made up data. I cannot vouch if this is true or not but we have

repeatedly asked them to show us where the data came form and have never had a response.

I personally do not trust a product that is not sold through

new car dealerships or regular parts houses. You have to get Amsoil from an

independent guy like buying Avon or Amway. Why is that? They seem as if

they are afraid of K&N and talk more about us then their own product. Rule

1 in marketing... Sell your product, do not bash anothers as that gives them

free press and usually come back to haunt you.

K&N filters are tested by an outside, independent laboratory; Southwest

Research Institute in San Antonio, Tx. K&N have been proven to stop at

least 99% of particles on a SAE dust test. This test uses particles as low

as the 0 - 5 micron range and goes up to 20 microns. For comparison, a

paper filter also stops 99% on the same test and the OEM minimum standard is 96%. Foam is generally the worst media with a typical efficiency rating of

75 - 85%. To get higher ratings, the foam must be more dense and therefore

way more restrictive. The "tack" characteristic of a K&N allows for increase

filtration without loss of flow as well.

The testing procedure used is SAE J-726 using ISO Test Dust. This test

is the standard of the air filter industry. The test procedure consists of

flowing air through the filter at a constant rate (airflow rate is

determined by the application) while feeding test dust into the air stream

at a rate of 1 gram per cubic meter of air.

As the filter loads with dust the pressure drop across the filter is

increased to maintain the prescribed airflow rate. The test is continued

until the pressure drop increases 10" H2O above the initial restriction of

the clean element (in this case . 78" to 10. 78" H2O). At this point the test

is terminated. The dirty filter element is then weighed. This weight is

compared to the clean element weight to determine the total Dust Capacity.

The amount of dust retained by the filter is divided by the total amount of

dust fed during the test to determine the Cumulative Efficiency.





The K&N filter achieved the following results:



Dust Capacity: 305 grams



K&N Cumulative Efficiency: 99. 05 %



Holding the filter to the light is useless, pin holes are normal. That

is what makes a K&N filter. There are actually hundreds of microscopic

fibers that cross these holes and when treated with oil, capture and hold

the very fine particles. On the same hand, they allow the filter to flow

more air than paper or foam. The filter is 4 ply cotton gauze unlike some

competitors synthetic material filters. The synthetics do not have the very

small fibers that natural cotton does. Also, the oil can be pulled off of a

foam filter contaminating electronic sensors. It will absorb into cotton

and stay in the media.

We got started over 30 years ago making filters for motorcycles and off

road racers. The filters did so well that these guys wanted them for their

cars and trucks. We started making filters for these applications and here

we are today. If they did not work, we would not still be here and growing

every year.

We now make filters for Chrysler/Mopar, Ford Motorsports, Edelbrock,

Rotax Engines, and Harley Davidson. We come as original equipment on the

2000 Ford Mustang Cobra-R. We even made filters for the Apache helicopters

used in Desert Storm because of maintenance problems with the original paper design. Now we are on the new unmanned Predator plane being used in Afghanistan. If they work in these conditions they will work for you.

Links to the filtration tests are on our web site at

http://www.knfilters.com/images/factstab1.gif (94+ Dodge diesel) and

http://www.knfilters.com/images/factstab2.gif (83-94 Ford Diesel).

 

[dieselgirlanddan]

Originally posted by danandme

WOW!! A K&N AND an Amsoil thread, all rolled up into one!!

:--) :-{}

ROTFLMAO:-laf :-laf :-laf

 

[DarrellB]

Can't we all just get along. :{



And start bashing some Furds and Chebys and not each other.



It's your money do what ever the He11 you want to with it.



Big D

 

[John_P]

rrausch:



Excellent post!!! Thanks for all the technical information.



As I said in my other post, I have used the K&N filters

in two Dodge CTD trucks with no problems whatsoever!

The oil analysis' on the members trucks (including mine)

would reveal problems if the K&N filters didn't work!



----------

John_P

 

[Steve M]

Rick Blum didn't mention anything about the warranty? If K&N was so sure of their filter's performance, I would think their warranty would spell out their confidence in their own product. When they guarranty that their filter will perform as claimed and not damage the engine it's intended to protect, like Fram does is writing, then I'll be convinced. Until then, it's all just a high strung sales pitch. Just my ever so humble opinion.

 

[Extreme1]

I have to chime in here...

With regards to air flow: the single biggest restriction in the stock intake is the air duct that passes from the air box to the fender. I could pull mine about half way down after installing the TST #5 kit with the stock air filter. I installed an Amsoil and it still pulled down to the same point. I removed the duct and now I can't move it even with the stock filter installed.



The EGT's do drop with the Amsoil installed vs. the stock filter (with the duct removed in both cases). The K&N will allow you to run the duct without pulling the minder down as far (based on discussions with others).



K&N filter ability: DC quit offering the K&N as an aftermarket part. This is one part (ANY brand) that really could get you in trouble with your warrantee if it could be readily supposed that the failure is a result of dirt. At the Schied (sp?) rally in '99 there was a good debate between some engineers and K&N customers regarding the use of this filter.



My personal experience: I just cleaned my filter for the second time in almost 3 years. I let it go almost 2 years this time because it is a job I'm not fond of. The reason I decided to clean it is because I recently removed the silencer ring (for audio effects) and I didn't notice much increase in noise and figured it was getting full. It was. It will be going back in tomorrow night (and the silencer ring will probably go back in shortly after that).



I was considering going to a different filter but I won't install a K&N, the stocker has higher EGT's and the BHAF is unproven so far. When guys start getting oil sample analysis with 100,000 miles worth of data, I'll consider installing one.

 

[RichB59]

Amsoil air filter

I cleaned my Amsoil air filter yesterday after about 10k of use it was very dirty. I checked the turbo area and found black grime not alot but some. I feel as if some of the oil is being pulled thru. The rubber duct was preety clean. I'm concerned about how much oil to put on the filter. I know it makes a mess off the air box. I'll be looking for something else I guess??????





RichB

 

[fest3er]

Re: Amsoil air filter

Originally posted by RichB59

... I'm concerned about how much oil to put on the filter. ...

As I understand, from cleaning motorbike filters, you should put *plenty* of oil on the clean, dry filter, work it in *really* well, then squeeze out as much oil as you can.



I would almost consider using an old clothes wringer to remove all excess oil. I should think that having all the *surfaces* of the foam filter coated with tacky oil would be adequate to catch most of the dirt.



I don't remember when I installed my K&N, but it's at least 50K miles ago. I really should clean it one of these days! (Actually, as I am an Amsoil dealer, I *really* should buy an Amsoil filter and install it, and keep the clean K&N for those times I'm cleaning the Amsoil. Besides, I need a quanitty of filter oil for the motorbike!



Fest3er

 

[E7mack96]

I hope that the K&N is up to the task in my dodge. I live and work in a very dusty location. The "dirt" is actually fly ash dust and is very small in particle size. As I have always sampled everything I own from day one. , I have a solid baseline to go against. If the K&N shows an elevated Si level, I will then try the bhaf. I really love the spoolup with this K&N though. Swear the truck feels faster(sotp feel)



I think that, If properly installed, It should work as advertised. I for one know of many "backyard" mechanics that half-a** everything they do, and they would be the ones to just toss it in the airbox and not even look at the instructions and grease it. They would then wonder what happened. One of these guys dosen't change his oil except every 20,000 miles. He does not meet a single one of the extended drain requirements. Dealers in the area refuse to take his equipment in on trade because of past problems with equipment traded in.

 

[Lil' Dog]

Pretty good hype on its own... Hmmmm who sponsered that test?? I bet that if there were any Amsoil failures we wouldn't hear about it...



BHAF..... well if you like paper and alot of hot air. . . sure.



Paper filters aren't necessarily better than these oil element types for their flow and dirt retention.



No mention of AFE however... Hmmm again. .



Oh Ya, Amsoil is a sponsor here...



J-eh

 

[sdalton]

I too have had bad luck with the K&N. But, it sounds as if a lot of you just hear what you want to hear. Open up and realize that the K&N is not the godsend of all air filters. People DO have serious problems with them and are telling you about them in hopes that you will learn. Everone here has been given the facts and testimonies of K&N users from both sides. Now take off your blinds, open up your minds and take the negative posts as a warning, not a bash.



Geeze, replace the K&N letters with Duramax and I would swear we were at the GM site.



For all you K&N users hellbent on keeping your K&N filters: Do members and buyers a favor and leave it in when you decide to sell your truck, and let the buyer know how long you have used it. I for one wouldnt buy a turbo charged veh that has had one installed for any great length of time.

 

[Lil' Dog]

If the filter is PROPERLY INSTALLED there are plenty of oil analysis results that show no difference or even better performance than the paper element.



So take it with a grain of salt boys... If you think the Amsoil is the greatest thing since sliced bread then I guess marketting is worth the investment for that test.



If you are scared of a purchase just because of K&N then your fooling yourself. There are far greater issues to abusing your truck than using K&N or any other filter for that matter. Funny thing was when I sold my 89 (280,000 Miles) the purchaser wanted the K&N filter. Oh ya, that truck is still running



Nice scare tactics though... I will agree that the quality of their filters has diminished quite drasticly, but those of us with original filters don't seem to have a problem.



Let the :{ begin. .



J-eh

 

[sdalton]

Lil'Pup. No flaming, only my experiences and opinions. Ok, maybe a tiny flame or two. I dont have Amsoil in my truck, in any way shape or form, although if I could afford it now I would use their synthetics, and bypass filters.

That is beside the point. I have had three K&N filters, one on a ford Lightning, and one on a Jeep Wrangler. These two worked great, it seems the latest one I purchased 2 years ago didnt, and that was enough to scare me away. Quality control is a must to keep customers, unless you are a Chevy fan.



Scott

 

[Lil' Dog]

Well to that I will agree. The quality control is not there for K&N and it will cost them. . But not all their products or related products should be painted with the same brush.



The thing that irked me about that test was the its Pro-Long type marketing with rocks and dust. .



Pup eh?????



:-{}