Kerry's Military record

[NETim]

Heaven forbid we impose moral values! The whole system is a sham. None of us is perfect. Who are any of us to demand civil conduct from anyone else? And here I thought all along that the 10 Commandments were a good thing to live by. Was I ever a fool or what? It's all a sham!!!



So Steve, if you propose a society with no moral absolutes, especially Christian ones, what do we do? Every man for himself? Sounds scary to me, but hey, I'm not perfect so who am I to pass judgement on anyone else?



It's all so clear now.



So if the Right wants us all to live on poverty wages, who will then be the consumers? What will keep the factories running if there's no market for their products? Are there enough rich people in the world who will buy enough cars to keep GM's doors open?



The problem is, there are a lot of jobs in the good ol' USA that us prissy Americans simply won't do. How many of us want to work in a meat packing plant?



American labor has priced themselves out of the market. Why should anyone be paid $20/hour to do a job that takes 2 hours to learn? You've got to have marketable skills in today's economy to get the big $$$'s. And it isn't up to the government to provide those skills to you. It's up to you.



I keep waiting for you despisers of big business to start up your own company and run it the way you see fit. Pay everyone big $$$'s and turn a profit at the same time. Attract the investment capital you need and promise them a 3% return. HA! It would be an eye opening experience I'm sure. The worker is always right and always oppressed. The owner is always a ******* and mean. Only in the AFL/CIO'S eyes guys.



I know it's a massive waste of my time to argue with you guys on the Left 'cause that's all you want to do... argue. I smacked ol' KRS around pretty good with the facts and he turned tail and ran. So I guess in that respect he is sensible. He's just another one of them damn fair weather gunowners riding on the coattails of the NRA and cussing them for the bumpy ride. It's funny how I never get a lecture about how rotten the NRA is when I'm at the traprange.



I ask the question to you who lean to the Left how you expect to keep your guns by voting Dems into national office, but I get no takers.



I ask you guys how you expect to keep your diesel powered pickups by voting Dems into national office, but I get no takers.



I ask the owners of RV's how they expect to keep their RV's by voting Dem's into office but I get no takers.



I ask wage earners how they expect to keep their take home pay by voting Dems into national office, but I get no takers.



I once read that one definition of a liberal is someone who won't take their own side in a fight.



I'm beginning to see the sense in that argument.



Tim

 

[Elite1]

I guess my original link was no longer working, I fixed that, but now it isn't showing the pics... . here was some of the article I wanted you to see, since Kerry is now bragging about his service. Back in the 70's he was tossing his medals in the river... . with good reason I might add:



While in command of Swift Boat 44, Kerry and crew operated without prudence in a Free Fire Zone, carelessly firing at targets of opportunity racking up a number of enemy kills and some civilians. His body count included-- a woman, her baby, a 12 year-old boy, an elderly man and several South Vietnamese soldiers.

"It is one of those terrible things, and I'll never forget, ever, the sight of that child," Kerry later said about the dead baby. "But there was nothing that anybody could have done about it. It was the only instance of that happening. "

Kerry said he was appalled that the Navy's ''free fire zone'' policy in Vietnam put civilians at such high risk.



http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:vWPtWJXn-wYJ:www.usvetdsp.com/jf_kerry.htm+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

 

[Champane Flight]

It is apparent that Elite one has no idea what war is. If you think war is a clean cut, theres the enemy kind of thing maybe you had better see what is happening right now in Iraq. War kills everything, women, children, old men, dogs, cats, and flowers. It is not a clean cut, honorable thing. It is a death, blood, guts, swearing kind of thing. Now you know why we who have seen it, do not like it.





I really don't confuse the issue between control and safety. I believe it is time for us to put the responsibility into gun ownership. There was a time when we as gun owners trained our children on gun safety and the responsibility of ownership. We still do. But we must admit that gun sales at this time in most states do not require you know a darn thing about the weapon you are buying, they do not require you to take even a basic safety course! And everytime someone even comes close to requireing this, the NRA and others scream gun control!!!!So we continue to sell guns to kids that have NO parental control, NO idea of the weapons capabilitys, NO idea of responsibility! I am sorry, but as a gun owner it is apalling that we cannot see a difference in responsibility/safety and control.



What good is a gun if you have to carry it to get to the grocery store to stay alive? Is this the freedom you strive for?

 

[A Johnson]

Kerry says he is a gun owner and hunter, so am I. I don't hunt with an AK47 either, fortunately the Second Amendment isn't about hunting, it is about owning guns. What guns? it would seem obvious that they would be guns capable of standing up against a goverment soldier. I think an AK47 would be a fine choice, although a Remington 700 is probably better. As far as armor peircing I have a . 416 Ribgy that will peirce a 78 Ford end to end, thus that argument also covers all sporting weapons. The battle lines are clear, if they want any guns or ammo they will want them all. The second Amendment has no wording to accept compromises. Who has trained the most Americans in gun safety? I submit to you that it is the NRA.



CF, you are correct in that we need to take responsibility for the things we do.



I just had a talk about war with my 13 year old son, he was upset because a movie about the IRA had inoccent people caught in the middle. I had to explain as you CF, have stated, everyone and anything can get killed and it is not honorable or pretty when that happens. I have never seen combat, I hope I don't. It is not possible to explain how my heart goes out to those who have served us, in thanksgiving, whether you thought it was the right thing or knew it was wrong but you followed the orders you were given. I don't have to live with those things, you do. I am sorry. I wished there was something I could say or do. I can't. I can't say I understand, that would be a lie. Thankyou CF, Illflem, JConley and all the others that I can't think of right now.



A Johnson

 

[Steve M]

NETim,

No where did I say I wanted a society without moral values. There are athiests with higher moral values than some self proclaimed Christians. There are no absolutes. So I don't want one sector of society imposing their morals on me. Until they are perfect, they need to mind there own business. Whoever they are.



"So if the Right wants us all to live on poverty wages, who will then be the consumers? What will keep the factories running if there's no market for their products? Are there enough rich people in the world who will buy enough cars to keep GM's doors open? "



Good question. Maybe Bush senior, Clinton December 8,1993, and GW could answer that for you. NAFTA seems to be doing wonders for other countries.



"The problem is, there are a lot of jobs in the good ol' USA that us prissy Americans simply won't do. How many of us want to work in a meat packing plant? "



My brother in law worked in a meat packing plant until he got a better job working on sail boats. Are meat packing plants filled with illegal aliens? If so where's the INS?



"American labor has priced themselves out of the market. Why should anyone be paid $20/hour to do a job that takes 2 hours to learn? You've got to have marketable skills in today's economy to get the big $$$'s. And it isn't up to the government to provide those skills to you. It's up to you. "



To a degree I agree with you. A seat installer at the GM plant making $28 an hour might be alittle over paid. That's almost unskilled labor. A typical refugee couldn't do my job. I don't make that much down here in the right to work state. But cops and teachers are very much underpaid. Warren Sapp makes millions and demands more. If you gets mugged leaving the game, you don't call WS. You call the cops and out comes a person willing to risk their life for $15. 00 an hour. Good teachers move on to better paying professions leaving public schools with what's left. Yet we're willing to up Warren Sapps pay to keep him in the game. I think our priorities are screwed up. And you're right. It's up to me. It's not up to GW to train and place illegal aliens.



I don't like to argue. That's why I sometimes get all torqued out of shape and want to end my subscription to the TDR. It's too tempting to go to the "other" forum. Kinda like the preacher who wants the local brothel closed down and banned from society because he knows he and his followers are tempted and don't have the willpower to stay out otherwise. It's happened too many times. I'd rather talk trucks. I joined with issue #9. I liked anticipating the next issue. Now it's like a bad habit.



As of yet, the dems haven't taken any gun of mine. I've been driving diesel powered trucks since '84. GW is showing me first hand what he thinks of my paycheck. Any ol' Mexican can do my job, legal or not. Jesus was the most liberal of all. He put up one heck of a fight. The righteous wealthy money mongers hung him with two theives to die slowly and painfully. But he asked his father to forgive them. For they know not what they do. Not much has changed.

 

[daveshoe]

Safety, safety, safety!

Show me one gun control organization that advocates ANY form of gun safety training. The NRA and boy Scouts and 4-H do a great job of it. For anyone to suggest that he is against the NRA because of Safety issues is simply an attempt to call the issue by another name. Ask your candidate how he plans to promote gun safety . Ask him if he considers some types of guns dangerous, Are they dangerous because of the type of action[revolver, single shot, bolt action , semi-auto ect. ] Are they unsafe because of the terminal ballistics of the projectile they fire. Ask him for a list of any guns that he wants to ban . Also ask him if he has a better way to teach gun safety than does the NRA with its Eddie Eagle program for young children. Ask him if any ''gun safety''organization who supports his candidacy for their materials on how they are teaching gun safety to children.

If you can show me any anti- gun organization who can match or exceed the NRA or the above named organizations on safe gun handling, then I will pledge to vote for the candidate of your choice.

Awaiting your kind reply, Daveshoe

 

[Champane Flight]

How about

DS, How about the military? Please cast your vote for Clark... .



All kidding aside, the NRAs and others are voluntary programs and very good. But how many ghetto children do you see volunteering for it? I am thinking that the only thing that will make a difference in safety is MANDATORY safety training for ALL gun owners. Registration is a joke, outlawing certain guns is a joke, locking them up is only a partial fix and should be included as part of safety training.

 

[daveshoe]

Safety, safety, safety!

Show me one gun control organization that advocates ANY form of gun safety training. The NRA and boy Scouts and 4-H do a great job of it. For anyone to suggest that he is against the NRA because of Safety issues is simply an attempt to call the issue by another name. Ask your candidate how he plans to promote gun safety . Ask him if he considers some types of guns dangerous, Are they dangerous because of the type of action[revolver, single shot, bolt action , semi-auto ect. ] Are they unsafe because of the terminal ballistics of the projectile they fire. Ask him for a list of any guns that he wants to ban . Also ask him if he has a better way to teach gun safety than does the NRA with its Eddie Eagle program for young children. Ask him if any ''gun safety''organization who supports his candidacy for their materials on how they are teaching gun safety to children.

If you can show me any anti- gun organization who can match or exceed the NRA or the above named organizations on safe gun handling, then I will pledge to vote for the candidate of your choice.

Awaiting your kind reply, Daveshoe

Edit: I did not intend to post this twice, but since I have, a direct response to the second paragraph that can be documented to proove me wrong is what it will take to secure my vote. Answers to the first would be helpful, also. CF-- am not trying to bait or flame you-- just trying to make you see what it will take to convert me to your position. Also , as far as Ghetto children are concerned ,the NRA will gladly do an Eddie Eagle program free of charge for any school or organization who requests it. Where is a safety program like this from the Brady group or other anti gun groups?

 

[barkerdl]

Second Amendment

"A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. "



Without prejudice to any of your fine arguments, the U. S. Government does not have the constitutional authority to regulate guns in any shape or form. That is why the National Firearms Act is a TAX law. In 1934, the federal government knew what the Second Amendment meant. Somehow, we have let the government, with both major political parties consenting, grow well beyond the clear meanings and boundaries of our Constitution. The federal government, with our silent consent, has passed and enforced numerous unconstitutional laws regarding not just guns, but many other issues that are to our detriment as individuals and as a nation and should now be curbed and those laws reversed to our common benefit.



I propose to all combatants in this argument that we take back our government by the means provided in our Constitution; specifically by changing out at each election any member of Congress who does not vote in lockstep with the Constitution, any executive branch member, to include the President, who countenances federal actions that are clearly in violation of the Constitution, and by the impeachment of any federal justices who rule in any manner opposing or changing the clear meaning of the Constitution.



Gentlemen, the Constitution is a very short and concise document. It can be easily read and understood in 30 minutes or less as it is written in plain English. For those who want additional explanation (Equivalent of Cliff's Notes), please refer to the Federalist Papers for explanation of what the Constitution means by the original authors.



Copies of the Constitution and the Federalist Papers are available at any public library and in many places on the world-wide web. After appropriate study and and some rational thinking on what is in your own best interest, the interests of your family and friends, and of our nation, please proceed to vote your concience in the next election. Do this and I will have no quarrel with the outcome.



End of Soapbox



Dennis

 

[Mike Ellis]

I really don't confuse the issue between control and safety. I believe it is time for us to put the responsibility into gun ownership. There was a time when we as gun owners trained our children on gun safety and the responsibility of ownership. We still do. But we must admit that gun sales at this time in most states do not require you know a darn thing about the weapon you are buying, they do not require you to take even a basic safety course! And everytime someone even comes close to requireing this, the NRA and others scream gun control!!!!So we continue to sell guns to kids that have NO parental control, NO idea of the weapons capabilitys, NO idea of responsibility! I am sorry, but as a gun owner it is apalling that we cannot see a difference in responsibility/safety and control.

CF,



It seems to me that there is some definite confusion here over the subject of control and safety.



First, the bazillion criminal thugs who shoot and kill people seem to understand pretty darned good how their weapons work and rarely injure themselves instead of the person they are robbing or murdering - how would training them in firearms use reduce the number of their crimes?



Second, accidental gun deaths are very low. Most non-criminal gun deaths are suicides. How would training help improve this situation? In most states it is ILLEGAL for children to be in possession of a gun AT ALL so gun stores couldn't "train" them anyway!



Third, the GCA of 1968 put stringent constraints on who can be legally sold a gun. For instance, no children can lawfully buy a handgun anywhere, anytime, anyhow. In Texas for example, it is now unlawful for a child to be in "possession" of a firearm if under the age of 18. At the gun shows and gun stores, most vendors post signs prohibiting people under 18 from even TOUCHING a firearm. Many gun shows won't allow 18-and-under to even enter the show without a parent or guardian! In most schools, with today's famous "zero tolerance" policies, a kid can get kicked out just for having a picture or drawing of a weapon. The reality of today's gun situation does not seem to bear out the notion that we are indiscriminately selling guns to children. Do they really sell guns to children where you live? I sincerely doubt it.



Fourth, what makes the children of today less trustworthy than when their parents and grandparents were children? Are they somehow stupider? Less responsible? If so, why? After all, until 1968 firearms could be sold mail order, and in many locales children could and did buy guns and ammunition without having a nationwide bloodbath. Maybe it is the miserably permissive parenting of the WWII generation and the creation of my own astoundingly feckless Baby Boomer generation that has caused the change instead, eh??? If the guys reading this thread want to see what's causing the problem, all they have to do is look in the darned mirror - WE ARE, because we don't hold people to standards anymore.



Since 1968, tens of thousands of laws controlling firearms have been passed. And yet, we still have very high firearms crime rates. This amazing situation is the direct result of the fact that ONLY LAW ABIDING CITIZENS ACTUALLY OBEY THE LAWS. Criminals FLOUT them. So the gun control laws have done nothing but deprive honest citizens of their right to keep and bear arms.



Finally, to all who consider the NRA's tactic of identifying and economically attacking politicians who threaten our 2nd Amendment rights, I ask you a simple question - why does the NRA have what is called a "blacklist" when every other political action group in the country merely has a "boycott"? Aren't they same thing, in fact? Isn't the term "blacklist" being used simply to villify the NRA and polarize the uninformed public against their PERFECTLY LEGAL practices? Jeez, gimme a break.

 

[Boomer II]

Originally posted by KRS

I'm a Distinquished Life Member of the NRA ("distinquished" part is given those life members who were wounded in combat), own some 50 rifles and handguns right now and have had a couple hundred over the years. I've been a competitive pistol shooter in NRA competition as well as an avid benchrest rifle shooter. Think I'd vote for someone who I thought would take away my guns?

But I don't see a need for a hardline stance FOR assault weapons, armor piercing ammo, and all of those fun things. I do see that there needs to be some way to try to control the killing going on right here in river city on every city street and even now in small town America. What? For the sake of gun ownership without any condition criminals will be tolerated in killing your children? Get realistic for a while. Just apply the laws already there? Good, if they'd work. But I haven't noticed any increase in the application of those laws during this last screwed up administration, have you?

Are you for real? You think gun control works?

 

[Boomer II]

Originally posted by KRS

Oh,I didn't notice your stupid crack about having to be a member (a life member yet?) for the insurance policy. Don't make me laugh. That policy wouldn't pay for two of the guns I've got; cheaper insurance is easily available.



But anyway, guns or gun laws, the owning them or not do not and never would drive my voting choices. The truth is they are a very small right in the greater scheme as I see it. When there are people actively engaged in eavesdropping on me, when police have the law given right to invade my privacy, when citizens are encouraged to report on other citizens whenever they feel a suspicion or don't like my turban or the length of my hair, when law abiding citizens are swept away to who knows where without recourse to courts or even contact with their families the ownership of guns pales a little as an issue.



Now though, you've set your own tone and I've got no time for you. Inane and endless point to point arguments over possessions don't interest me and so, neither do you.

If you believe all of this, then owning guns is THE most important right you have, or would you hand them over?

 

[Champane Flight]

Any idiot

Yes they do sell guns in my state. The longest wait I have ever had is five minutes for the paper and a CBI check. You forget this is the home of Columbine. You remember the two little wimp kids 16-17 who blew away their friends. They were underage and able to get weapons. So the first thing our REP Governor does when he hits office is pass a gun show act. You see the right/Republican side continues to harp on the Dems taking away their guns, yet the most of the laws I have seen were put through by Republicans. The Brady bill, gun show checks, CC permits pulling, and even our local laws trying to pull weapons off our hips, all by Republicans. The gun control the Reps were so upset about was the assault weapons ban, which is easily got around by anyone who really wants one.



You can dump most of the gun "Control" laws we have now, in my opinion they don't work. I would much rather see waiting periods, safety cards, and FBI checks. . The constitution does give us the right to keep and bear arms, it does not say give arms to everybody, and shoot who you wish. I have seen plenty of people over 21 who had not a lick of common sense and no buisness owning a firearm, so what can you do? Outlaw stupidity?



Myself I would rather live in a world without guns, than have to carry one all the time for protection. The wild west is over. In reality most would shoot themselves in the foot and have to give their weapon to the crook, if faced with defending there homes and property. The idea of overthrowing the government has crossed my mind since Bush has taken office, but I really don't think I have the firepower, or the energy... I will let W. Clark do it. .

 

[Boomer II]

It's called freedom, stupid people have rights too. If they do stupid things they will either take themselves out or answer to the law. The so called "Wild West" is no different from any other time in world history. There has always been bad people willing to rob, rape, and kill others, it's pure fantasy and goes against human nature to think otherwise.

 

[Rman]

I went to a gun show here yesterday. I walked around lookin for a deal on a colt 1911, ofcourse i didn't find one but I did see something that interested me. I watched as a man of latino descent tried to purchase a firearm. It was a small autoloading pistol, probably a . 380. The man at the table asked for his ID and pulled out the paperwork... The papers you fill out for a background check and for gun transfer.



The gentlemen who barely spoke english got very devensive and tried to get out of it. The man at the table stood up and told him he would not sell the gun to him, and that he'd have a tough time buying a gun from anyone at that show.



The FACTS are, for those of you who don't frequent gun shows often, a DEALER must transfer ownership of the weapon and is required to do the paperwork. MOST, tables at a show (atleast around here) are setup by DEALERS. So in order to buy a firearm you must provide everything as if you were buying it down at the local gun shop... in fact the same guy from the gun shop is at the show!!!



The myth tha gun shows are these wildly uncontrolled gun swaps is a crock. Try going to one and see for yourself. I watched as that group of mexcians hurridly walked out of the show. They knew they were in the wrong place, there were cops everywhere, and I bet quite a few off duty police as well.



CF I think you're just flat wrong about your view of guns. A world without them is completly ridiculous. I don't really carry a concealed weapon very much anymore, I don't like the hassle involved. But I do shoot a few weekends a month. Mostly bench shooting and prarie dog hunting, I load my own ammo in my basement. I enjoy "playing" with my firearms. What right is it of yours or anyone else's to try and take my weapons away.



The "assualt rifle" issue... I have a couple "assault rifles". To me they're more of collector guns than anything. One of these days I'd like to buy an HK MP-5... full auto... why??? because I like weapons, and that happens to be one fine weapon.



A gun is a gun, whether it's armor piercing rounds, a grenade, a . 50 cal, full auto, semi auto, or black powder rifle. When in the hands of an educated person, with knowledge and experience it's just a gun. Why take my rights away to have that weapon because of some thug who misuses one?



Do you have any idea how hard it is to get NFA weapons? I encourage any... . ANY criminal to even attempt it LEGALLY.



That's the problem with your "laws"... they only work on law abiding citizens... and well they just aren't the problem now are they.



Just my couple cents worth.

 

[NETim]

Re: Any idiot

Originally posted by Champane Flight



Myself I would rather live in a world without guns, than have to carry one all the time for protection. The wild west is over. In reality most would shoot themselves in the foot and have to give their weapon to the crook, if faced with defending there homes and property. The idea of overthrowing the government has crossed my mind since Bush has taken office, but I really don't think I have the firepower, or the energy... I will let W. Clark do it. .

Gotta love that attitude. Do you really believe that most people are that incompetent? I guess this is why Hilliary says "it takes a village. "



The NRA has for years tried to promote gun safety education with their "Eddie the Eagle" program in schools, but naturally it was met with stiff resistance by the usual suspects. So I'm not all that certain that the Left is really interested in promoting "gun safety. " They are so certain that the average American is an incompetent boob that they simply cannot be trusted with guns.



As for me, I don't mind guns. I like the shooting sports. I don't mind my neighbors owning guns. I trust them. I'm a conservative.



Tim

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by KRS

.



But anyway, guns or gun laws, the owning them or not do not and never would drive my voting choices. The truth is they are a very small right in the greater scheme as I see it.

Still can't believe I read that... ... ... ... .





I really have two things I vote on-gun rights, (abiding by the Constitution) and lower my taxes.



Could care less about the other babble.

 

[NETim]

quote:Originally posted by KRS

.

But anyway, guns or gun laws, the owning them or not do not and never would drive my voting choices. The truth is they are a very small right in the greater scheme as I see it.

Dittos Sledpuller.



Again I have to question a person's understanding of the Constitution and the 2nd Amendment when they make a statement like the above. Especially someone who claims to be a gun owner.



Tim

 

[Elite1]

CF, You said: "Myself I would rather live in a world without guns"



Sounds to me like you would rather live in a fantasy world!



You know the old saying, if we outlawed guns, only the outlaws would have them...



Re: Kerry, I have talked to quite a few war heros over the years, but have never talked to one that brags about his service and puts others down for their lack of... when you couple that with the fact that he threw away his medals in protest (while the rest of his unit was still at war)... but now brags about those same medals... . I think he is getting some bad advice from someone. As far as President Bush serving in a state National guard squadron, I don't know about your state, but my states national gaurd is presently seeing action in Iraq.

 

[NETim]

Dillon Precision link

Here's a link that will make some of you chuckle Dillon Precision.



Some of you won't find it so humorous.



Tim