Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Key doesn't turn starter, but jumping selenoid works well. Relay needed from Larry B?

[raxley]

My starter wouldn't start one day and I put a post in the TDR, where it was recommended that it could be starter contacts, and to go to Larry B for them. After I put the contacts and new plunger in, the starter spun faster than if ever did before. The truck has about 200,000 miles on it. A couple of days ago nothing happened when I turned the key. I jumped the selenoid and later replaced the (40 amp that was in there) fuse and I thought all was well. Tonight it did the same thing. The 40 amp fuse is good, it's not that. I can jump the selenoid and it works, so I don't think it's the starter.
I checked out Larry B's site again, and he's got a relay kit to help the older trucks start when the wiring is old. It puts a relay between the starter and the key. I thought that what was the selenoid was doing, that it was a relay, but from Larry B's site I got the impression that it wasn't.
I've checked the cables, I know how often they are the cause (and the battery clamps with corrosion too).

It seems that the problem (in my little mind) is in between the key and the selenoid. What do you think?
Richard A

 

[JMcCoy]

I would have someone hit the starter while you test the small wire with a test light. If there is power, then test the large wire from the solenoid to the starter. You may want to use alligator clips so you don't have to be on your back. I would locate the problem before adding solenoids and stuff. Good luck.

 

[MLee]

Raxley;
Have you moved your steering wheel up or down when you get the no-start? to see if this is playing a part in this. It could be a separated wire/broken wire coming into the key area. And it could be the ignition switch. Mine is doing the same thing occasionally, I can move the wheel up or down and it will turn over. Also did the plunger and H/D contacts, by passed the safety lock out on the clutch, made no difference.

 

[Missouri Mule]

If you have tilt steering wheel as mentioned in above post could be pulling wires at connector if it still attached to steering column.
Take a test light and see if you have power going to starter relay ( you can jump the rely by putting a wire (solid/house is best) by touching the hot terminal and terminal opposite if it.

You can also have someone turn the key to "start" position and see if relay clicks (I think it clicks).

The ground to the relay is supplied by (manual trans) clutch safety switch or neutral safety switch on auto trans.
And either of those switches could be bad.

Also your ignition switch could be bad.

 

[Texis]

I was fighting the same thing last fall. Ignition comes on, no starter engagement? I ran out of time and had to have the truck for hunting season, so I installed a push button in the cab that goes straight to the solenoid. Very undignified solution :-( Can't say I'm proud of it, but 10 miles down a dirt road in the woods wasn't where I wanted to stay. The push button works every time, but I would really like to figure this out!! I'll keep the push button even if I ever figure this one out, but I will relocate it under the hood for a back up.

If you get it figured out PLEASE post what you found to be the problem!

 

[raxley]

Did any other circuit go out besides the solenoid? I know what you mean about leaving the old wire w/ button in (even afterwards) I was pretty happy once I realized I had reliable transportation again. I'm basing my guess it's the ignition switch because of other things that also went out at the same time-blower motor, power windows, airbag light now stays on. These are on different circuits. I also usually left the blower motor on when I turned off the truck, so it was usually on when I started it up. They didn't put relays (as much) in these older trucks, the headlight switch is another part that wears out prematurely because entire current of headlights go through the light switch, and I already had to replace that. I also spent some time going through the wiring from front to back, lot's of times the wiring that people put in is not as well done as the stock wiring.
I'm keeping a eye on the tracking for my switch, it should get here today.

 

[Texis]

Did any other circuit go out besides the solenoid?

Not on mine, just the solenoid circuit. Solenoid is fine.. just no juice hits it from the key. I replaced everything around the key in the column, i.e. tumbler, etc. But it didn't stop the pain. Sorta embarrassing when someone rides with me and I reach down and push a button to fire it up lol.

I think mine has something to do with trans neutral, brake switch, TPS, etc as there are no other bad circuits. Something is stopping mine from engaging the starter.

 

[raxley]

I put the new ignition switch in, it's still the same condition. What could affect the blower motor, the power windows, the starter selenoid system (and air bag light stays on while driving, instead of going out)?
Back to the drawing board

 

[JMcCoy]

Did you check the Ignition Off Draw (IOD) fuse?

 

[raxley]

Hi JMcCoy- I checked all the fuses in that compartment in between driver's dash and the driver's door, and I checked fuses in PCM. I don't know of any other fuses. Where is the IOD? Is it like a fusable link someplace?

My first problem consisted of blowing a fuse (think it was a 40 amp engine/run or accessories) the second time it was a bad starter relay.
Today (after I found my new ignition switch didn't fix anything), I found that there is no power at the starter relay. Every other relay has constant power to terminal 30. I pulled the PCM apart so I could find out what color it is (pink w/ blk tracer) I don't want to leave too much apart, I put it back together. There were pink w/ black tracer wires going into both the engine run/accessories fuse and the starter relay. I guess it 'Y's' off at some point to do this. So I'm thinking that this pink with black tracer is involved somehow with my problems. I pulled some power off the battery in a loose wire and plugged it into the blower circuit (I can see the pink w/ black tracer going into inside cab fuse box) and it didn't make it up to the pink w/ blk tracer (hereafter called PBT wire) that comes out of my ignition switch. So I put the fuse (30 amp for blower) back in and took off the plug to the ignition switch and put power to the PBT wire there (into the plug that came out of the switch). Now I've got power to the relay (at least to the term 30, which is always hot) and about every place I could check in the cab.
I dunno what this is all telling me, I need to be methodical but it's difficult to know how the wires (even PBT wire) run, where it starts and ends. There are 'vast' spaces between my checking points, I wish I could follow the wire around. There is probably a way to do that-they do it with gas lines and also electrical lines in buildings.
I got time, but I don't have much money now so I have to do it myself. At least it's not keeping me from driving it, with a 'jumper' I can even roll the windows down (when it's stopped and I have it plugged in) But no blower.
Also, I read some other thread that said that power was ALWAYS to the blower motor, and the ignition switch grounded it so blower would run. Even with the blower motor fuse in, and with the PBT wire 'hot' I'm not getting power over there. The poster (actually a reply to a problem) HERE https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/252477-Lost-my-HVAC-blower?highlight=blower+motor
had a 2006 truck, I don't know if they are different.

 

[JMcCoy]

The IOD fuse is located on the driver side of the dashboard. Mine went out a few months ago. Got home by zip tying the fuel solenoid up. Replaced the fuse the next day and I was back in business. Le5 us know how it goes.

 

[raxley]

I tested the iod fuse by the shop manual procedures, the circuit and fuse are good.
I got everything working, while the PCM was apart. Wasn't able to test the blower, but I had power windows and it would start with the key. Then I got everything back together and it was broken again. I'm thinking it has something to do with the connections at the PCM. I can take it apart a lot faster (actually do everything a lot faster) and I think I will probably get it fixed permanently tomorrow.

 

[raxley]

I fixed it but I don't know exactly how. I guess it could be bad connections. I found a splice (manual says just before the PCM) where the power splits before going to the starter relay and to the assessories/run (all in PCM) but it was good. Anyway after I got power to the starter relay, the power windows and starter works. Then I found out that there was power to the blower, then went to switch and was able to get it to run by grounding the connections (one by one) there. So I figured it was the blower switch (also checked the resisters, couldn't find the specifications, they were all under 10 ohms). I put the switch back together and just tried the blower and it worked. Everything is good. I guess it could go bad again, I'll leave the wire to my starter so if the relay goes out again I can open the hood and start it like I've been doing.
The only place I could see problems with the connections were at the plug going in to the blower motor, it has been hot there the insulation was melted back about 1/4".

 

[JMcCoy]

Glad to hear you got it licked.

 

[Texis]

New twist on my ignition / starter problems, maybe this will help someone else as I'm beginning to think mine is lost cause lol.

Followed my "no start" issues back to the ignition -key switch. Pulled it out and tested the rest of the system by adding 12V to the BLU/YL wire at the ignition connector, bingo the truck started right off. So it's good from the ignition plug back to the starter. Fixed the loose pin connector at the plug.. all's well. UNTIL I put the switch back in.

Here's what the ignition switch is doing; Works like a champ with the switch off the column, hanging by the wires. Install the switch and it's dead again! The switch is designed to ground at the column when installed, it has brass sleeves at the mounting holes and a brass tang into the cover (for grounding). I went through this exercise 5 or 6 times, same result each time. Works when not screwed on column.. stops working when it's attached to column. BTW I tried a new switch last fall, made no difference... did the same thing, installed it and it didn't work.

So why does a switch that is designed to be grounded, work properly ungrounded and not work when grounded??? Is there ANYTHING else in the column, lock-outs, etc that could cause this?

Any suggestions will be taken seriously, no matter how ridicules.

Cheers!

 

[raxley]

I finally found the problem. Underneath the PCM (more or less the fusible link box, not the computer under the cowl, right?) there are wires connected by female spade clips. I FINALLY found one that looks good, but which erratically stops conducting. It took me taking the PCM apart 4 or 5 times now. Since I couldn't get that terminal out of the plastic housing I even made a 1/8th or a little bigger flat probe that was supposed to let me unclip the plastic prong that holds the wire in place. I just cannot get it out. The only thing to do was to put another hot wire with the main circuits coming in, and I'll have to put a fuse on it.
If I could just get the terminals OUT of the plastic housing, I'd be able to reach in with a piece of sandpaper (maybe on a pencil end) and polish the spade terminal (like it is on top) where the fusible links plug in. It would probably be best to replace the female terminals, but it would probably be ok if I can wire brush them and put on anti corrosion stuff on them. But I tried for close to 30 minutes trying to push that plastic prong flat, so that I could pull the wire out.
Anybody know of a way to do this? I think it would be good as new if I could clean those bottom terminals.

 

[JMcCoy]

I would keep the 12 valve engine you have now. Can to take some pictures so we can see exactly what connector your talking about.

 

[GAmes]

Your use of PCM (powertrain control module) had me scratching my head. The big fuse box under the hood is the PDC (power distribution center).

 

[raxley]

It's the fuse box, I've never had anything to do with the PCM (although I would like to know if it can tell me if any electric circuits are not 'up to snuff') Everything I've talked about above needs to be edited-Power distribution center is the item I've been working on. After the cover of the PDC comes off, it is assembled with a top and bottom half, which have these plastic clips holding it together. After you 'discard' the bottom part (for more room in turning it over) you can see a bunch of wires which snap into the bottom. Each of these square hole has a little clip, that works like a arrow head, the female spade clip slides into the hole and after it goes into far enough, it snaps in. I should be able to remove these wires, so that I can clean the male spade end (with a small screwdriver and a little sandpaper). The female spade end, I would probably just cut it off and attach another. Anyway, I can't get the female spade clips out of the PDC, although I made a little tool of (maybe around) 16 or 18 gauge metal, that is about a 1/4 inch wide (just smaller that the hole and the spade clip) If I shove the 'tool' into the hole with the side that snaps down, I should be able to (with wiggling while pushing the 'tool' in) remove the spade clip, thus allowing me to to clean them. I can't get this clip out, so I just cut off the wire and ran another wire from where the power comes in from battery (looks like about maybe 4 gauge, maybe 3/16" thick) I also need to put a fuse in line with the new incoming circuit. It replaces the wire that has given me such trouble in finding, it actually keeps the blower, solenoid, windows, and air bad light on, because it goes into the fuse box, then goes several other places and goes through the (inside) fuse box about 3 times. When the wire has a bad connection, since it's daisy chained, it affects blower, solenoid, windows etc. It took a while to trace the problem down.
Right now, everything works, and haven't lost power yet. I have power windows, a blower (bad combo when neither of those works on a hot day) my selenoid works by turning the key (although I have burned up two starter relays within about 2 weeks) My latest problem is the dash lights going out. They had a 5 amp fuse, replaced it with a 10 or 15 amp fuse, yesterday I went up to a 20 amp fuse, it's been 'good' so far.
I guess I'll have to look around and try to find why the fuse for dash lights keep going out. The fuse box cover says 5 amps for 'illumination', 20 amps is too big. I still need to put an inline fuse for the new wire replacing the existing wire, which has a bad connection (bottom of pdc) the fuse that is going out now, inserts into the left of driver side's dash.
I'm wondering why I've had to replace the relay twice, too. I would still like to fix the bad connection in bottom of PDC, it should be easy to remove with the homemade tool I mentioned above.
Sorry I have used the wrong name for the PDC (previously in earlier posts) instead calling it the PCM, I'm sure that has caused some 'head scratching'. What type of scan tool will work for the PCM (computer at cowl, passenger side under hood) I have a Smarty for my 2005 Ram Turbo 2500, I"m sure that wouldn't work, the connector is much bigger. I didn't even realize that there is a computer there. What does this thing do, I though nearly everything in my 1994 Ram 2500 Turbo was mechanical?

 

[GAmes]

Have you invested in a factory service manual? It has all the wire diagrams and also lists the PCM's inputs and outputs. I prefer the printed version, especially when chasing wires.
http://www.genosgarage.com/product/dfsm94-cd/dodgeram-factory-service-manuals
http://www.genosgarage.com/product/dfsm94-print/dodgeram-factory-service-manuals