Killer Dowel Pin

[PUMPERDUDE]

After reading yet another post that the dowel pin has done a number on the timing gears/case,I'd like to know how big a problem this is. What year's engines?Does bombing increase the potential fallout?How hard is it to correct the problem?... Fifth gear problem is worrysome enough,now another boobytrap. Still love the truck though.

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1995 Club Cab 4WD 5. 9 SLT 5 SPEED,CAT IS MIA,TST #6 IS IN THE GROOVE,29. 5 ALJO TRAILING BEHIND.

 

[DSiemens]

Happened on my 95. I believe this is a problem on all 94 to 98 and I believe Joe Donnely has said it's also an issue in ISB's. I believe that Piers told me that he saw this on a 92 that took out the block. Bombing does not affect this; it's just like one of the machine presses at the manufacturing side does a bad job and bores thought the cover.

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95, Kitty dead, #6plate, 5speed.

 

[Hammer]

Well I can stick my penny in here,,After the notorious pin completely destroyed my front cover,cam gears,balancer and other assorted pieces it was time for a trip to the dealer,,The CTD man there is a friend of mine and spared my butt when it came to warranty on this deal,,Seems service manager did not like the pump mods(as expected),I did not care though all I wanted was to get the friggin thing fixed,warranty or not,,Now in my conversations with manager he knew of the pin problem and told me ALL the 94 to 98. 5 12 valvers are suspect to this,,I did ask why its not a recall item and was told it is not a big enough problem(seems like Cummins and Dodge are rolling the dice here),,Think of it how many trucks are out there and could break AFTER warranty expires and when you see the flat rate for this job,your wallet will hurt,,Thing that jacked me up was,when haggling with the service manager about fixing it,and if I was paying,I was informed that even if I PAID the truck would be set to Dodge's specs and NOT WHAT I WANTED,MMMM,,You'd think a bill over $2,000 I should get what I want ,not what they want to do,,Seems like a little pressure should be put on Dodge and Cummins here and 1 or 2 can not do it alone,this should be a TSB and all checked and replaced for free,no questions asked,BOTTOM LINE!!!!End of story,Dodge did what they wanted,at no cost(thank god for that),and I WAS TOLD not to return to them(D. E. Stetler) for any service at all,then I paid to have the truck set where it was when it went in(I AM MY OWN WARRANTY STATION!!),,The things you go through just to own the best truck and engine combo... ... ... ..... What a Deal!!!

 

[Missouri Mule]

Hammer,
I agree with you they should fix it.
But the TBS does not imply warranty. The TSB's are sent out to dealers from headquarters when a reoccuring problem solution has been found to fix it.
Did the cover it?
If not take it to a shop where they will do what you want unless you have a warranty.

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Bill Thomas
Missouri Mule - 96 Wht 4X4 ST CC,5 spd, 3. 54, 8 ft bed, 1 ft high cheater boards.
99 Freightliner bl/wht FL60 ISB-5. 9 24v,215 hp,520 tq,6 spd, 3. 59 nsr,16 ft box, 19. 5 tires,Wt/gvw 11,000/23000

 

[Hammer]

Oh,Yeh its fixed,,Trick here is I know what you mean about the TSB's and warranty stuff,,Here's where my gripe come in,,THEY(Dodge and Cummins)KNOW about this problem and have a solution,BUT,WILL not let the owners know about it other than these posts,,Seems like I said, they are gambling and hoping that they break AFTER the warranty is out so more$ come into play during the repair process and they spend NO money fixing their SCREW UP,,I realize the work on my truck terminates the warranty,and did not care if I paid,all I wanted was my truck repaired and done the way I wanted,,NO FACTORY Dodge or Cummins shop will set anything on our beloved rams anywhere but to STOCK settings,PERIOD,unless by chance you use a Cummins factory performance setup,,If you do not believe this talk at length to either dealer,,Fixed Yes Twice in one week,,5 star service,phooey!!

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98, Flame Red, Quad Cab, 2500, 4x4, 5spd, Autometer and Cyberdyne gauges,Edelbrock Performer IAS shocks,TST#10 plate,16cm housing, B-D Exhaust Brake,Timing Advanced,K&N,Totally Amsoiled,Cat Muffler and Silencer ring ALL M. I. A. ,A BOMBING IN THE PROCESS!!

 

[Charlie Parrish]

What is the fix? Would Cummins shops know about this? What do I ask for? Need to get this done for my peace of mind.
Thanks
Chas

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I may not be much, but I'm all I think about.

95 that is lightly used. Dressed out nicely with 19. 5 wheels from Rickson Truck.

 

[grtescpa]

Originally posted by Charlie Parrish:
What is the fix? Would Cummins shops know about this? What do I ask for? Need to get this done for my peace of mind.
Thanks
Chas

After reading about the dowel pin trouble, I called the Cummings engine customer service number. They told me the dowel pin fall out problem only happened to a small percent of engines made and have very little records of it. (yeah right!) I also went on line with them and was told that only Dodge covers the warrenty for the engine. Any further inquire would have to be directed to Dodge. Cummings could not tell me what serial numbers showed up from the problem. Going to check with Dodge about this matter but I don't think I'm going to get to far. I will post my findings

 

[DSiemens]

I think the problem is rare enough that it must be one or two machine presses that are drilling the holes through the metal so only a small percentage are problematic.

 

[Dr.Evil]

What actually is the failure mode? Is the dowel pin breaking and the timing cover moving and getting into the timing gears? Or is the pin the one that drives the timing gears and it wiggles out & eats a hole through the timeing cover? Sounds like a manufacturing defet to me! CUMMINS getting a D- on Mfg. 101 Exam? The Injection pump is driven by the timing gears on the CTD correct? And if Your BOMB-ing the engine your putting the squease on more fuel or squeazing the fuel harder so You need more torque to the pump to do that right? If the dowel pin is the timing gear drive pin, Let's just say it's something Every Pro-Stock Tractor Puller mechanic has dealt with.
DENNY... ... .....

 

[Joe G.]

The dowel pin is a locator pin for installing the timing cover. It comes loose and falls into the gears which tends to break things.

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Joe George
Eureka, CA

'95 2500 CC auto 4X4,3. 54,Combo EGT/boost guage,custom switch panel,PacBrake,TST #5,DTT TC/VB,Automatic motorhome steps on both sides,Foldacover hard bed cover,Cummins chrome kit,Black steel grill guard,Front hitch receiver

 

[Hammer]

Cummins say the problem is small numbered and directs you to Dodge,,Same crap they said to me,,Listen the problem here is the fact they know about it(both manufactors) and have a repair(front cover replacement),,So tell me why IF its a small problem has the dealer in my area done numerous ones already,service manager says mine was the first,a talk session with the mechanic revealed NUMEROUS others(seems like they turn over management often),,All I'm trying to get across here is its time to put the heat on the manufactors and make them admit they have a problem so guys can have them checked and or replaced BEFORE its too late,,Logical,don't you think,,Killer part here is,Since I do drive truck and our company is Cummins specfic,I know they are having NUMEROUS front cover problems with most of their other engines(we use M 11 and N14 selects),,Now these motors carry a longer warranty and the one I'm assigned(truck) has had 3 covers in less than 400,000 miles,,So with our 100,000 mile warranty,what are the chances of these pins breaking after the warranty expires,pretty darn good,,Its time for both manufactors to admit the problem and give us the opportunity to have them checked and/or replaced,not after they BREAK... .

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98, Flame Red, Quad Cab, 2500, 4x4, 5spd, Autometer and Cyberdyne gauges,Edelbrock Performer IAS shocks,TST#10 plate,16cm housing, B-D Exhaust Brake,Timing Advanced,K&N,Totally Amsoiled,Cat Muffler and Silencer ring ALL M. I. A. ,A BOMBING IN THE PROCESS!!

 

[Hammer]

Breaking parts is an understatement here,,The parts list I have for my repair is 3 pages long,,Now I understand some of this is minor stuff,but ,you should see the list,,Pin breaks and will do one of two things,#1-fall harmlessly into the oil pan with no damage at all,#2- Fall into the cam gears and create so much damage that it is hard to imagine(front cover cracks,cam gears wiped out,broke fan hub assembly,metal into oil pan,and so on),,Mine was close to a complete engine replacement,LUCKLY,no metal got into oiling system as I quickly shut it down(good thing for me I was in a drive thru getting my daughter dinner and not at highway speeds or BOOM BOOM out goes the lights!!),,I keep saying its time to put the heat on and make them admit the problem here... .

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98, Flame Red, Quad Cab, 2500, 4x4, 5spd, Autometer and Cyberdyne gauges,Edelbrock Performer IAS shocks,TST#10 plate,16cm housing, B-D Exhaust Brake,Timing Advanced,K&N,Totally Amsoiled,Cat Muffler and Silencer ring ALL M. I. A. ,A BOMBING IN THE PROCESS!!

 

['956Wheel]

So let me get this... the pin is to locate the timing cover and the hole it is in is supposed to be blind but many were drilled thru causing the pin to fall thru and wreck the front end of the engine. What about cross pinning the pin? #ad
Where is the pin located? #ad
I looked at the DC manual as well as the Cummins book and neither seems specific enough to be of help. A rollpin can be used to secure the pin, or one can tap the pin and loctite an allen head bolt into it giving the pin a "head". I am just tired of the lame excuses and would rather do it myself.

KEEP THE POTHEADS AWAY FROM THE TRUCK! #ad


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9535hundred

 

[R.ebel]

Statland,

The crosspin is an excellant idea! Can someone please give us the location of the problem dowel? This killer dowel pin problem has been bugging me for a while now, I'd like to prevent mine from falling out. Don't like the thought of a major repair wiping out my bombing fund!

 

[LandShark]

Guess I won't have this problem. I spent a couple of hours trying to get my timing pin loose to do a valve adjustment and finally gave up on using the pin.

The timing pin is located under and to the front of the injection pump. Not east to see or even feel! You guys that are worried about the pin falling out; once you see where it is located you'll have second thoughts about cross pinning it. Why not just put a glob of silicon sealant on it??

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1995 2500 SLT Club 4x4, auto, 3. 54, 3600 pound Elkhorn slide in camper, AirLift air springs, Ricka dual wheel adapters (used only with the camper on), K&N, DC tow hooks, Rancho RS9000, Hellwig rear sway bar.
111,000 miles and counting.

 

[Joe G.]

LandShark,

The timing pin is NOT the pin we are talking about. The dowel pin is used as a locator pin for the gear case. It's a major effort to even get to it. LOT's of parts have to come off the engine!

 

['956Wheel]

Joe, I am a hyper-active machinist... love a challenge, let me know where the PITA pin is located and it is unlikely that I will give up before I find a fix. #ad
12 VALVE GUYS, IF YOU CAN POST A PIC OR DRAWING OF THE PINS LOCATION WE CAN DO IT! #ad
We have the best diesel here and for a pin to phuck it up is a shame!

I gotta go look under the hood and hit the book some more. Later bros.

Mike

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9535hundred

 

[Joe G.]

Mike,

You will need to check with Joe Donnelly to get the exact information. So far, mine has not fallen out or, if it has, it made it to the pan with no damage. The information I have is from other posts, especially those of Joe D. so I may have some of this wrong.

The gear case is in two pieces; an outer cover and the case housing. The outer cover is not a big deal to get off. In order to take the case housing off you have to remove all the gears in the pile of gears that drive things at the front of the engine. This also means that the injector pump and cam shaft have to come out. The hole the pin is in is behind one of the gears so you can't even take a look at where it is without a big hairy deal. From what Joe D. says, most pins he has checked are really in there. The problem is just with a few.

 

['956Wheel]

Joe & Hemi, I found a drawing in the Cummins book and read Donnelly's post on the pin. This one is allready cured, like the post, (in archives), says pull the pulleys, fill tube etc. remove the cover and the pin (upper) is exposed, if it is not a stepped bore stake or peen it till 3/8" will not pass thru. I was under the assumption that the pin was in the gear case rather than the block. This one is not too big of a job and I am going to check it out in two weeks. If you take it apart and find all is well its not wasted time... its peace of mind! Sure a little blood will be donated to the Cummins... big deal!

Mike

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9535hundred

 

[JEmmons]

Got a 98 12 valve, auto with minor mods. About a month ago, I noticed oil on the bottom of my oil pan. Just a few drops on the bolts, no oil noticed on the ground. I figured when I had my oil changed last that some was just spilled and ran down. Then the other day I noticed oil on the front of my engine at the cam, not much but some. Took it to my buddy at a diesel repair shop (they do warranty work for cummins) and he told me what it was. Yes, this infamous pin. Told me the same things that could happen as stated in a previous post. Looks like my pin fell out and down. Have been driving ever since. Took it to dodge dealer, told them what he said and it is scheduled to go in tomorrow morning for repair. Unbelievable what has to be done to fix, all of the disassembly. He said that the whole front of the truck has to come off in order to get the timing cover off. He showed me a cover where the pin hit the gears. Messed that thing up big time. I was told that my truck will be down for 2 to 3 days; all warrantied. I got 74000 on it. I was surprised that dodge pre-ordered a timing cover just in case mine was damaged and never even looked at the truck yet. I guess the other possibility is that the seal between the cover and the motor at the camshaft could be bad, which is also under warranty. I will let you know how I make out.

[This message has been edited by John Emmons (edited 04-22-2001). ]