2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission leaf springs

[Bob4x4]

I can tell you that my 94 CTD lwb 2500 4x4 turned wuch tighter than my 73 Chevy lwb 4x4



Bob

 

[SRath]

Don't get me wrong guys, the old Chevy and 1st generation Dodge is not perfection. But you gotta admit that an entirely unreasonable amount of time and effort and money is spent trying to fix all of the 2nd generation Dodge's steering and suspension woes, or even just trying to pinpoint them. And the best you can ever do still leaves it lacking in strength and durability. More moving parts equals more expense and wear and complexity. It cannot be otherwise. The same argument can be made for the 12 valve vs. the 24 valve, and that's a whole 'nother can 'o worms... . But it's also another glaring example of "fixing" what wasn't broke for questionable "gains" (24 valve motors are quieter? Big deal. ).



I do know that my wishful engine mods are constantly pushed farther and farther into the future due to the drain the front end of my Dodge is putting on my budget. Nothing but the axle housing and coil springs will be stock when it is finally finished, but I have a couple thousand dollars of parts yet to buy... It is infuriatingly ridiculous to have to spend that much on just fixing design problems (DC engineered changes) on the frontend!



I'm stubbornly and proudly old school: K. I. S. S. (keep it simple stupid). When you consider that the oldest, most obsolete computer that any of us is using is many times more powerful than all of the computers that landed our first and last men on the moon put together, there must be something to that philosophy. With all the technology and fancy widgits and billions spent since, we don't have that 1960's capability right now, and the Chinese will get there before we can again, I recently heard.



This same new generation of Dodge engineers also wasted a great deal of money (ultimately our's), time, and effort to "fix" what wasn't broke when they changed and weakened and cheapened the frontend. Their "solution" caused far more problems than it solved. The "softer ride" is wishful thinking. Guys who never leave the road or haul a load, should buy a Lexus and leave 4x4 trucks to guys who don't need to squeeze the Charmin to see if it's soft enough before they use it.



By the way, Bob, it is fun to show Jeeps and Blazers, which I admire greatly, what our long trucks can do when set up properly; until they put us in tight woods and such... (probably rocks where you are). But outside of that, they are indeed very capable.

 

[Bob4x4]

My week-end duties :-laf

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Bob

 

[Hammer]

I rest my case about the need to constantly and repeatedly throw big money and parts at the Dodge front suspension.

I am trying to figure out what parts you "constantly" need to replace or "throw" big money at on your truck?. I have upgraded some of mine which were the result of normal everyday wear but nothing out of the ordinary. At 178,000 miles I have yet to replace the ball joints or any of the Dana 60 parts.

Every now and then, and more frequently now that diesel is 75 cents per gallon more than gas, I get in my big Softride leaf spring Chevy and marvel at how much better it rides and steers.

How about comparing apples to apples,not comparing them to oranges. IF your "Softride" sprung Chevy was compared to a similarly equipped Dodge would your thoughts still be the same?.



The initial question here was... . "anybody converted to leaf springs in the front"



My answer to him then is,yes,there was someone here who did that conversion here. F8TLDOSE's 792hp,hard running pulling truck,was a converted truck which was at one of my dyno events a couple of years ago. It was done by him at home and somewhere I may have a shot or two of it and will look for it. It was a purpose built ride built to eliminate the Dodge CAD and worked very well when he pulled. It was,however,ruled obsolete when the local sanctioning body mandated stock front suspension components.



Bob...

If I PM you a email address would you consider sending me the shot you have just posted in full size so I can use it for a screen saver?. I like seeing shots of our trucks in action and try and save as many as I can... ... . Andy

 

[Bob4x4]

Which Pic?



Bob

 

[Bob4x4]

I am trying to figure out what parts you "constantly" need to replace or "throw" big money at on your truck?. I have upgraded some of mine which were the result of normal everyday wear but nothing out of the ordinary. At 178,000 miles I have yet to replace the ball joints or any of the Dana 60 parts.



Me too I still haven't had to replace any parts on my 94 Dana 60. The steering brace,and a 3rd gen track bar are just rather low dollar up grades in my book. It has always been used off road,sled pull. drag race and of course Duning and trailer towing.





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Bob

 

[Hammer]

I am hoping the old truck is pulling out the Hummer,LOL.



At 178k all I ever did was Solid Steel replacement parts of factory units which were getting old. Chevy and Ford leaf fronts are not perfect and wear also if used as ours are daily as nothing is perfect. While I realize to some my truck is rarely used for what its intended purpose was it does get daily driven in all types of bad weather and does not sit. I will put its driving and handling capabilities up against any Chevy or Ford leaf front anyday.



The 3rd gen on the rocks is the one I am referring to... ... . Andy

 

[SRath]

"How about comparing apples to apples,not comparing them to oranges. IF your "Softride" sprung Chevy was compared to a similarly equipped Dodge would your thoughts still be the same?. "



Huh? Comparing one heavy duty 4x4 pickup's suspension with another is not fair? Not if it's a Dodge, I guess, since the Dodge is at such a huge disadvantage by design... So maybe you meant "apples to lemons"?



We could go at this all day. . Funny how you guys keep ignoring this statement, though:



"Name ONE single thing that is stronger in the Dodge frontend than in a K30. Or more reliable. "



It all really comes down to that and i have been very clear about my comparisons of apples to lemons. Where are your's?



apple> Kingpins

lemon> balljoints

apple> Lockouts

lemon> CAD

apple> one piece 35 spline axle shafts

lemon> 4-piece (including sleeve) 30 spline shafts

apple> strong, easy to lube, replaceable wheel bearings

lemon> dodge's unitized hub

apple> no track bar

lemon> track bar

apple> no control arms

lemon> control arms and bushings and limitations they place upon suspension lifts.



All of these apples are much cheaper to maintain and stronger than the lemons.



Just do a search here on "death wobble" and get back to me. That phrase was invented by Dodge owners...

 

[RStankevitz]

yeah but what you are failing to mention here is that chevys engineers did the same thing compare a mid 90's chevy one ton to a mid 90's dodge one ton now we have apples to apples

the chevy 1 ton front end sucks big time you think the cad on the dodge is a issue the chevy front housing is a nightmare i would say dodge is doing good to stay with the solid front end all together. chevys ifs setup is a huge nightmare to lift or mod compared to the dodge setup. i agree the old early 80's chevys where simple but then so wherent the early 80's dodges

 

[CTD12V]

chevys ifs setup is a huge nightmare to lift or mod compared to the dodge setup. i agree the old early 80's chevys where simple but then so wherent the early 80's dodges

I think that's what he's been trying to say : Dodge (and Chevy) shouldn't have gone away from the leaf spring setup.



SRath (and anyone else who knows), I have no expertise in suspension design, but I have always heard that coils allow greater articulation than leafs (assuming the anti-sway bar has been disconnected!). Isn't that why those rear coil conversion kits are popular with the Jeep mod guys? It seems that leafs by their nature are designed to function within a narrower range of travel than coils. Maybe I am all wrong about this--that has just been my (mis?)understanding of why anyone would want a coil suspension rather than leafs. And like you say, any advantage of the coils are probably more than offset by the other cheap components that Dodge put into their front end design.



CTD12V



BTW, Bob4x4, whose pulling who in the Hummer/Dodge pic? Was that Hummer high-centered? That is a NICE looking truck--wish mine looked that clean and nice

 

[SRath]

"yeah but what you are failing to mention here is that chevys engineers did the same thing compare a mid 90's chevy one ton to a mid 90's dodge one ton now we have apples to apples"



I did more than just mention that. I said:



"Chevy guys were more highly motivated to produce a retro-conversion since the accompanying front differentials with the torsion suspension were utterly weak and worthless and had nothing available in the way of lockers or limited slips or suspension travel. Really bad news for serious offroaders.



The Dodge still had a pseudo-Dana 60 (pumpkin only really) solid axle. It is a far cry from the nearly bulletproof axle that made the Dana 60 famous, and Dana Spicer should be ashamed of themselves for agreeing to cheapen and weaken it, but it still beats what Chevy did. "



CTD12V: A well-designed coil suspension can be extremely articulate, but our's is not well-designed. So can leaf springs, though custom coil setups are favored for extreme articulation needed by rock crawlers. My problem with the Dodge setup is mostly with the cheapening and weakening of the Dana 60 axle and the general disregard for serviceability and durability of the steering components. It's almost like they said "We gave you coil springs. Sure, we got in way over our head and screwed it all up, but that's your problem now. "



Dodge, to their credit, did try to address a couple problems in later models, such as an improved trackbar and better designed crossover setup. But they fell far short of being serious about fixing the problems.



I'm collecting all the expensive stuff to make the best of what my Dodge has, but it sure costs alot and I have a long ways to go. I have the steering box brace, the steering column bushing kit, and now a set of 4 adjustable tubular control arms. I still need the 3rd gen adjustable track bar conversion along with replacement ball joints, shocks, and tie rods, etc. I'm taking Cummins98's advice and going with a '98 crossover setup on my '96.



Throw in the cost of the conversion kit to go to one-piece inner shafts and lockouts and taper-bearing hubs and eliminate the CAD, and you are really talking some serious dough! And I'll still be stuck with balljoints...



Literally thousands of dollars in that front suspension to get it anywhere near what it should be! That money could have done a top-notch leaf spring lift/softride kit a couple times over and still left money for engine mods, lockers, gauges, etc. The more glamorous stuff we all love.



In the Motocross racing we do, there is no doubt at all that suspension is everything. Great suspension and stock power will beat humongous power and bad suspension all day long off road given similar rider abilities. It is the same for trucks, so the suspension comes first.



We are fanatical about supertuning our dirtbike suspensions. Way beyond anything that you will ever need to do on a pickup unless you are a very, very serious offroad racer. I revalve the shock and forks and respring my son's racebikes every time he grows 10 pounds or so. We finetune it every race for the track conditions and design. It is amazing what a difference it makes. It is the difference between crashing ugly and winning. No suspension gets worked harder or abused worse than a motocross/supercross bike's, though I put desert race trucks right up there in the same category. Rock crawler's suspension is amazing and tough, but at least it gets to work at slow speeds.



The best suspension tuners are viewed by MX racers as the equals or better of the best engine builders. I happened to get into it myself a few years back due to the benefits of great suspension and the high cost and turnaround time of paying a pro to do it. Besides, no pro tuner has the time to spend watching my son on his bike and seeing what is right and what is wrong in all the many different conditions and repeatedly revalve the suspension to get it near-perfect. It's very time consuming, but it's actually fun to revalve and respring shocks and forks and see and feel the difference your efforts make. So I'm very critical of suspension by necessity and practice. Too bad for Dodge.



I'm not stopping at the front suspension on my Dodge, either. The rear leaf suspension needs work, too. Lift blocks are a bad, cheap shortcut offroad, and come factory on our trucks. The leaf springs are far too stiff with no flex at all. A set of flexy, softride, full-arch springs (no blocks) for offroad and everyday driving would be much better. Augment them as I did my Chevy with Firestone, Ride-Rite, or similar air suspension for perfectly leveled heavy load handling ability, and it will be a much better handling and riding and stopping truck. The best of both worlds.



No factory truck comes with great suspension. But a simple 4-leafs system is much easier and less expensive to upgrade than what we have. With the 1st gen Dodge and old Chevy setups, you did not have to spend anything on the kingpin/lockout/tapered bearing Dana 60 itself. It was already super-tough. Four well-chosen leaf springs and some poly bushings and high quality shocks and steering stabilizer pretty much did it. I added a swaybar quick disconnect and rear air suspension to mine, too. The entire truck done for far less than what just the frontend of the Dodge costs to upgrade. And I guarantee it (my K30) is a pure pleasure to ride in and drive. If you need anything softer or smoother, you need to buy a luxury car and forget about pickups.

 

[RStankevitz]

i agree that all the manufacturers have screwed up everything cant leave anything alone but i think dodge has done about the best at least they kept the solid front end. do the hub conversion kits come with a solid axle now? last time i looked i didnt see one.

 

[Hammer]

You missed my point completely...

The comparison I was trying to have you look at was your "lifted softride" vs a Dodge with a "Softride lift".



The thing that kills me here is how you reference all the repeated failures and problems on the Dodge yet you say nothing of the Chevy's problems. IF they were as invincible as you say then am I not correct in saying their sales would have been off the chart?. Again,nothing is perfect no matter what brand it is.



You asked for one thing stronger in a Dodge... .

I will say the 4 piece axle you so despise. While your harping about its inability to handle power or its not being strong enough because of its 30 spline axles I have visions of Kent Crowder and Dave Mitchell dragging sleds all over the Midwest,as fast as they want and as far as they wanted with that same "weak 4 piece axle" you cry about.



Face it,your a Chevy owner,no Dodge will make you happy and nothing Dodge does will make you happy. My suggestion to you is take the motor out of your truck and install it into your beloved K30,then maybe your life would be alot less stressful and you'd have the truck you really want.



Personally,

I agree we could hash and rehash this and go on forever. You have shown what your desire is in your words. Yep,I am a Dodge owner,always have been always will be. However I know that they are not perfect,because nothing is. You take whats best for you and make it fit your needs. When I bought my truck some 180k ago I bought it because of the Cummins and it was a Dodge. I didn't care what happened to others,what they were griping about or how bad someone said the front ends and transmissions were. I bought it knowing changes may need to be made to fit my style and repairs may need done. For that I have gotten 180k of the best driving experiences one could ever have wanted and to this day I still get behind the wheel knowing I enjoy as much now as I did when it was new. Maybe you lost that somewhere Mr Rath,but,I am convinced that you never had it and if it wasn't for the Cummins you would still be a content Chevy owner... ... . Andy

 

[SRath]

Absolutely Andy. If it were not for the Cummins I would not even consider a Dodge... or a Ford or a newer Chevy. A gas-powered Dodge has no merit to recommend it.



I like my Dodge overall, but it needs a great deal done to it to be the truck of my dreams or even just meet my expectations. I even gave it a big sloppy hug and kiss after getting my family safely home through 100 miles of a howling snowstorm a week ago. It did it's job well and whole lot of other people ended up in the ditch or worse.



I keep the K30 because it just might be home to that Cummins and NV5600 if something ever happens to the Dodge. I also just cannot part with it. It is a truly tough truck. A year from now, I will rest easier knowing it is protecting my 14 year old son as he drives it to and from school.



But you still haven't pointed out just what makes you think the degenerate dana 60 in the new Dodge is stronger than the real dana 60 in the old Dodge and Chevy aside from the fact that you live, breathe, and bleed New Dodge. You are just blindly loyal to your truck and not objective at all. Which part on that dana 60 in particular Mr. Hammer?



Again I say: Do a search right here on this forum under "death wobble" and then tell me I'm the only guy here with a problem with dodge's front suspension. I'm just one of the few who aren't afraid of the sanctimonious members like you who can't accept the truth that just because it's new and just because it's dodge doesn't mean it is better or even as good as the old stuff.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Just do a search here on "death wobble" and get back to me. That phrase was invented by Dodge owners...

WRONG. My leaf sprung '79 CJ-7 (w/Skycrapper 4" softride springs) and bone stock '85 Toyota 4WD long bed P/U both do the death wobble when parts are worn out or need adjustment. Let's see, when did the Jeep Cherokee/Grand Cherokee go to the coil front end that is the same basic design as the Dodge p/u?



You need to separate Dodge Dana 60 front axle problems from the suspension 'problems' associated with the coil spring design. Put a $5K Dynatrac 35 spline/king pin/manual hub front end in your dodge and eliminate any concerns over ball joints, CAD or multipiece axle shafts.



If coil springs are such a problem then why did Ford use them on the early Bronco and now the SuperDuty's have gone to coil springs? Leaf springs have their place - they are cheap and easy, they combine both the location and load carrying capability into a single component. And have the resultant trade-offs.....



Brian

 

[NVR FNSH]

In the Motocross racing we do, there is no doubt at all that suspension is everything. Great suspension and stock power will beat humongous power and bad suspension all day long off road given similar rider abilities. It is the same for trucks, so the suspension comes first.



We are fanatical about supertuning our dirtbike suspensions. Way beyond anything that you will ever need to do on a pickup unless you are a very, very serious offroad racer. I revalve the shock and forks and respring my son's racebikes every time he grows 10 pounds or so. We finetune it every race for the track conditions and design. It is amazing what a difference it makes. It is the difference between crashing ugly and winning. No suspension gets worked harder or abused worse than a motocross/supercross bike's, though I put desert race trucks right up there in the same category. Rock crawler's suspension is amazing and tough, but at least it gets to work at slow speeds.



The best suspension tuners are viewed by MX racers as the equals or better of the best engine builders. I happened to get into it myself a few years back due to the benefits of great suspension and the high cost and turnaround time of paying a pro to do it. Besides, no pro tuner has the time to spend watching my son on his bike and seeing what is right and what is wrong in all the many different conditions and repeatedly revalve the suspension to get it near-perfect. It's very time consuming, but it's actually fun to revalve and respring shocks and forks and see and feel the difference your efforts make. So I'm very critical of suspension by necessity and practice. Too bad for Dodge.

Big difference between revalving the forks & shock (and adjusting clickers for daily track condition) and actually designing the suspension linkage mechanics/mechanism.



Valving/spring rates is a PERSONAL setting and the only way to get it just right is trial and error. Maybe you should spend the time/money with custom shocks on the Dodge before condemning coil spring suspensions.....



I'm trying to remember if I've ever seen a leaf spring on a SCORE Trophy Truck - nope, can't remember seeing one... . I wonder why? I've seen plenty of coil springs and even helped design a truck that used torsion bars on the, gasp, live axle rear suspension - Baldwin Racing back in the early '90s.



Brian

 

[SRath]

OK. So there really is no need for this TDR site at all. Dodge is perfect. Their suspension is perfect. It is the most awesome thing ever conceived. It is indestructable. It never breaks or needs fixing. It rides softer than a baby's bottom. You can lift it cheaply and it only takes 5 minutes. Death wobble is the driver's fault. God drives a Dodge. The old design sucks so bad it could not have possibly outlasted Dodge's design by decades. Anyone who disagrees with you should be banned from TDR. You guys know it all. Do as you do and think as you think. Chevys suck. Fords suck. Newer is always better. Dodge's are perfect because YOU own one. Dodge's are God's gift to mankind.



Does that about cover it?

 

[NVR FNSH]

OK. So there really is no need for this TDR site at all. Dodge is perfect. Their suspension is perfect. It is the most awesome thing ever conceived. It is indestructable. It never breaks or needs fixing. It rides softer than a baby's bottom. You can lift it cheaply and it only takes 5 minutes. Death wobble is the driver's fault. God drives a Dodge. The old design sucks so bad it could not have possibly outlasted Dodge's design by decades. Anyone who disagrees with you should be banned from TDR. You guys know it all. Do as you do and think as you think. Chevys suck. Fords suck. Newer is always better. Dodge's are perfect because YOU own one. Dodge's are God's gift to mankind.



Does that about cover it?

Wow, you get questioned and now you're taking your ball and going home?



Dodge isn't perfect; Chevy isn't perfect; Ford isn't perfect - no product is 'perfect'.



What your getting your panties in a wad about is people questioning your 'expertise' and preaching.



Would I rather have 'real' wheel bearings and manual hubs? You bet - even though there have been a few times the CAD system was awfully nice. Would I prefer ball joints/tie rods that don't wear out in 90K miles? Yep. Am I the one making financial decisions for Dodge regarding the MANUFACTURING costs? Nope. Unit bearings are easier/cheaper for the assembly line - that's the reason they are used by Dodge and others. The stock unit bearings on my '00 were just fine until they had to be removed to replace the ball joints and the damn things were frozen to the knuckle - the bearings themselves weren't a problem, the assembly line that doesn't use any anti-sieze was the problem.



Either grow up and continue the discussion or take your ball and go home.



Brian

 

[Hammer]

But you still haven't pointed out just what makes you think the degenerate dana 60 in the new Dodge is stronger than the real dana 60 in the old Dodge and Chevy aside from the fact that you live, breathe, and bleed New Dodge. You are just blindly loyal to your truck and not objective at all. Which part on that dana 60 in particular Mr. Hammer?

I still have yet to have you show me the proof of why you feel your K30 standard Dana 60 is stronger than my "degenerate" Dana 60,other than you prefering your "Skyjacker Soft Ride" lift kit and its cheaper cost. Hmm,wait a minute,I get it now,what your really comlaining about here is cost. Could it be possible that your still living in the late 70's and early 80's and feel that todays costs are too much for aftermarket parts?



What do I think makes my Dana 60,oh wait,my "degenerate" Dana 60 better?. Personally,I'd say the CAD instead of those archaic,always breaking lockout hub assemblies. The added suspension travel of a 4 arm coil system over a binding leaf spring. We could go on and on here. I only wonder why your not attacking the older Dodges for their lack of lockouts also. Oh crap,thats right,they leaf spring fronts.



Am I blindly loyal to my Dodge... ... Nope,but,I already said that and have already stated NOTHING is perfect,not even your beloved K30. What I am loyal to is Mopar,both old and new and you couldn't give me a POS Chevy for free,let alone have me pay for one. I only wonder how you feel about Chevy's Independent front and coil springs?. I am guessing Mr Rath that you will be gone from here before me and back to your Chevy's as your distaste for Dodge is one thing we can all see easily. Do yourself a favor,sell it,your life will become stress free and someone will get the truck they have always wanted... ... . :{:{:{:{:{

 

[SRath]

Since you won't do a search on "Death Wobble", I did. I only made it through a few hundred posts, but here is what a couple of my favorite and most respected fellow TDR members had to say in just a few of their many posts. If you have an issue with my honest opinion of the New Dodge front steering and suspension, pick on them, too. It's obvious they are your biggest heroes, too:



"So Mark I have a question for you here on this... .

It seems like you have no faith in what research and quality workmanship can do. You seem to know alot about how unsafe this is and then go on to say how safe the "factory setup" is. My question to you is this. . "How can you use the words safe and factory setup in one sentence?". Its been long known how unsafe the factory froint ends truely are. Those owners who have had no front end problems are owners who either continiously work on them or are not being honest when you ask if they have had front end problems. I have one of the trucks that doesn't get used much(meaning,that it sees only daily street duty,hauls nothing but me and has only ever towed anything once)on this forum board and I can tell you how often my front end gets worked on. It sees some kind of repair at least once a year for something during our state annual state inspection. I'd hate to see how much work it would need to maintain it if I was to run it off road and/or haul all the time with it... . Andy"



"One thing is for sure,death wobble will frighten anyone who experiences it. I have been very lucky with mine and have not had issues with it and my truck has 170,000 miles on it. However,I stay on top of my tires,rotate them at every other service and have them balanced then also. My truck also has all of the Solid Steel front end parts and is kept aligned regularly and the shocks are replaced at regular intervals. Hope you find what is causing your issues and maybe I helped some... ... Andy"



"I will have to second the Solid Steel Third Generation conversion trac bar. Mine was purchased and installed at Enterprise Engine Performance in Thornville,OH and it was moeny well spent. No more chasing the front end and that constant wiggle of the steering wheel. it drives as straight and smooth at slow speeds as it does when you have the hammer rollin coal... ... Andy"



"... I have done the Solid Steel DSS Brace,3rd Gen Trac Bar and their lower control arms on my 1998. It was the some of the best money spent on my truck period. The truck should have driven this way from the start and I am now confident that it will drive where I want to and on those occasional jaunts at warp speed I need not worry about chasing the front end all over... . Andy"



"DJ. .

Solid Steel Industries front end parts make your truck like it SHOULD have been from Ma Mopar at the start... . Andy"



"While going to our weekend show early Sunday morning I went the usual way(Up I-83N) and while crossing the bridges over the Codorus Creek(bridge seams are like driving over moguls) the truck layed hard to the left front and headed for the wall. This was enough to make sure I was awake..... Andy"



"Long story short - I very quickly realized that I was not going to get the unit bearings off w/o destroying them so I took the truck to my local Les Schwab. They had two guys working on the truck ALL day and had to destroy one unit bearing in the process. I ended up with two new unit bearings (my cost) & new ball joints for ~$1200 and consider money well spent. There is no way I could have done the job myself given the circumstances. Brian"



"Best price I've been quoted is $185 + $15 shipping. Any place better? Brian"

(what's the matter, Brian, are YOU living the 70's and 80's and complaining about prices?)



"The front end on these trucks does not allow for much slop before DW can rear it's ugly head. Search on my user name for my saga with my '96 gasser and DW... Brian"



"Do a search on my user name and you should find plenty of info on this problem - I had it on a '96 2500 4wd w/360 V8. DC replaced the track bar, steering stabilizer, added the second stabilizer, replaced all four control arms, all four ball joints & both hubs & rotors - did not fix the problem. From what I could tell they never checked the alignment - control arm eccentrics were marked w/grease pencil after the control arms were replaced. I added 1 hash mark of caster and the problem went away. Brian"



Sorry guys, I take no pleasure this, but I won't sit still for being gangbanged by hypocrites... even if they really are two of my favorite and most respected fellow members.



"Either grow up and continue the discussion or take your ball and go home. "



Scott