Leaking Injector

[Paychk]

HELP!



I just adjusted the valves and changed the cover gaskets, now that everything is dry (oil leaks) I noticed the # 5 injector seems to be leaking combustion pressure and fuel past the base of the injector. It doesn't seem to be coming from the high pressure line connection because it isn't spraying from that location, it seems to well up from the base. From what I see in the manual there is a copper seal at the tip of the injector and an o-ring at the top of the injector nut, the o-ring is gone, is that all that needs to be replaced or does the copper seal need replacement too.



What do I need to do to fix this?



TIA

 

[Tim1]

Hey bud, the copper ring (. 093) is leaking. I don't think that the o-ring does that much as long as the injector nut is tight. You can use a 15\16 deep socket(6point shallow wall ) as long as the injector body doesn''t turn. Don't bend any lines and it helps to remove a valve cover or two. Hint, set the copper in place with a long pin punch(guide only)and then install injector. Oh heck, maybe the injector is bad. Good luck. Tim

 

[Power Wagon]

Originally posted by paychk

HELP!



I just adjusted the valves and changed the cover gaskets, now that everything is dry (oil leaks) I noticed the # 5 injector seems to be leaking combustion pressure and fuel past the base of the injector. It doesn't seem to be coming from the high pressure line connection because it isn't spraying from that location, it seems to well up from the base. From what I see in the manual there is a copper seal at the tip of the injector and an o-ring at the top of the injector nut, the o-ring is gone, is that all that needs to be replaced or does the copper seal need replacement too.



What do I need to do to fix this?



TIA

A few things to consider:



1. If you steam cleaned the engine, you got water down there, and now it's boiling away, and forcing the old engine oil back up past the nut, since you said it wasn't sealed with the little square ring, any liquid can and will get down there. It'll go past the threads too.



2. If the above didn't happen, then you are leaking compression, in which case you need to remove the injector, clean out all the carbon down in the hole, and reinstall it with a new copper gasket at the bottom, torquing to 44 ft-lbs. Don't forget to get new copper gaskets for the return rail (You'll need to remove it at least partially to get the injector out and back in) and make sure you don't tighten the bolts that hold it on too much.



3. If you really do have fuel coming up from below (usually, it leaks down the side of the injector from the return rail on the "down" side of the body, where you can't see it) your injector needs some help from a shop that does injectors. It has to be taken apart, the pieces lapped to true and re-torqued, since the fuel is leaking between the body and the nozzle retaining nut (part of the injector itself, not the nut you see). If you have over 150K miles on them, you might want to consider new injectors - PW injectors run real nice You can't do that part yourself, since both removing and torqueing the injector nut requires a compression stand to hold the body in and the internal parts together tightly to prevent things from breaking inside.



4. Fuel leaking down the side of the injector and running into the cavity below the retaining nut will slowly "boil" when the engine is hot, making it bubble and sometimes even visible vapor is seen. Just FYI.



5. Removing the injector can sometimes be really tough to do. Commonly it's done with either a small slide hammer that screws on where the fuel inlet is, or something fabricated to provide a strong, straight upward pull on the injector body, like a short segment of thick tubing and a washer, nut and long threaded rod with a nut on the end that fastens to the inlet threads. A few lucky souls have managed to get them out without, but I've only managed that trick on one I just installed. If the retaining nut is rusted badly to the body of the injector, and the body turns around when you loosen it, the entire injector is ruined and you'll need a new one.



I think I've covered pretty much all the bases here... . At least the common stuff. good luck

 

[Paychk]

Tim1 & Power Wagon



I appreciate your help



I checked the injector retaining nut on # 5 & 6 and both were loose, I torqued to the 44 ft-lbs. and fired the engine, it was totally cold. After bleeding the injectors I sprayed a little silicone lube on top of the retaining nut and still got bubbles on 5 & 6 nothing on 1-4. Looks like a trip to the dealer or maybe the injector shop to get all new sealing washers and square o-rings for all six injectors, I believe in swapping parts in sets, if 2 of 6 has gone bad then the likelyhood of the others going bad is there.



Will update tomorrow, hopefully I can find someplace open to get parts.



Thanks again!

 

[Power Wagon]

The places to get the parts are: Fuel injection (pump) shop, or Cummins.



I could give you the numbers, but after being away for a year and a half, I realized I can't remember them anymore

 

[Paychk]

I'm in luck there is both in town so I'll hit them up tomorrow.



Thanks

 

[Paychk]

Update on the injectors



I was able to get washers from an injector shop and the new ones are not as thick as the old ones, the question is will this cause the injector to extend too deeply into the combustion camber? I checked the guide button to make sure it didn't hang up on the end of the locating slot and the washer was imprinted from the end of the injector so it seems to be seating correctly from that stand point. The guy at the injector shop said that that was the type they use for all of the industrial / construction "B" engines, but he didn't address the Dodge trucks directly.

As a side note I spoke with him about rebuilding the Bosch VE pump, and he said that as long as it just show symptoms of normal wear ie won't shut off and didn't experience starving for fuel, he normally charges around $350-375 of course that depends on the parts required. Aso he re-builds turbos and has the equipment to rebalance the impellers, I didn't get a price for that, but overall I was impressed with this mom & pop operation.

 

[Tim1]

Payck, When I repaced the injectors with the Lucas units, It was very clear with the instructions to use the same thickness washer that was removed. Now, there was 3 different sizes in there, mine were . 095. Might ask Piers or Joe on how critical this dimension is. I would try to stay the same. Tim

 

[Paychk]

Piers, Joe or Anyone?



How critical is the injector seal washer thickness? do I need to hold off and get the same thickness as what I removed?



PS



Any suggestions on how to remove the old seal stuck at the bottom of the injector bore?



TIA

 

[Power Wagon]

There are actually 4 sizes, if memory serves. The slots are deep enough for all but the thinnest ones. The thinnest ones are something like . 025 or . 035 thick, if memory serves. It's unlikely you got those.



As to whether you should use the size that came out... . There is considerable uncertainty on that, since I've witnessed using the "wrong" size and things worked just fine.



I really think that you should use the middle thickness washers, not the super thick ones. However, whatever you do, you should use them all the same, I'd guess.

 

[Tim1]

Hey bud, just a thought on how to get the copper washer out... ... . Would it be possible to take a new one to the hardware store and thread a long lag bolt on the end only? Just start the lag bolt or big sheet metal screw, then attach a pair of vicegrips to the end and gently tug. I'm afraid if you use a hooked pick, it might break and go down the whole. Just a thought for what its worth. Tim

 

[Paychk]

Success!



She purrs like a kitten now, I didn't realize how much difference 2 cylinders would make. It idles very quiet now and is very snappy when it revs. I was able to get the old copper seal out by running a dental pick around the outer edge of it and it just popped loose. From there it was all down hill. Suggestion to anyone working in the vicinity of an open injector hole with tools small enough to fall down in *** slide a piece of rubber hose over the end of the scribe or dental pick, then if it falls in just pull it back out ***.



Thanks again Tim1 & Power Wagon, your help sure greased the skids.



Ps I wonder what my milage will do now that all 6 holes are working together

 

[Paychk]

BTW



Tim1 where is Ellahurst at in Oregon, I've never heard of it. Just call me a misplaced curious Oregon Boy.



Thanks

 

[Tim1]

Hey Alan,

ellahurst is 3 miles east of Dodson which is 8 miles west of cascade locks in the Columbia River Gorge. Weathers pretty bad here, but it keep most people out of this area. Very peacefull !!!! Only problem is it is a national senic area so the regulations with the government are insane, to say the least. Tim

 

[Tim1]

Oh yeah Alan, what did you decide on the thickness of the copper washer? Tim

 

[Paychk]

I decided to use to thinner ones, they mike at 0. 056 inches (as close as I can get using a sheetmetal gage). When she fired, she ran very smooth so I'm taking a chance. I wonder if the position of the injector has an effect on emissions or something of that nature and that is the reason for the caution in the instructions.



Ps Sure miss the home state. I should be back in 1 1/2 years, God willing and this terrorist business behind us, that way the Air Force will see fit to let me persue a second carreer.

 

[Nordby]

Another way to get a stuck washer out from the bottom of the injection bore. I took an 'L' shaped allen wrench that I had a duplicate of, grinded the short end even shorter and left a sharp edge on it. Worked like the dental pick mentioned previously, just ran it around the inside edge and popped out, pulled it out with the allen wrench as well.



jon