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2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Life After Death Wobble???

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Howdy, I was a member of the TDR for many years and five Dodge CTDs. When I retired in 2014 I dropped my membership as a cut-any-extraneous-frills measure, i.e. satellite radio, TDR, and so forth. The CTDs I've owned included a 98 12v, 2002, 2004 dually, 97 dually, and finally my 98 quad cad dually, aka "the keeper". All 4x4s. For $35 I thought I would rejoin the TDR and seek some advice that I regard as will be worth the $35 investment. So, I am soliciting advice on where do I go from here. Is there life after death wobble? Does it become a futile effort of throwing money at a hard to fix problem? Have you had a continual battle with death wobble? Have you satisfactorily fixed your death wobble, and how? Did you immediately go out and trade your CTD in on a Duramax or Power Stroke? Frankly, this is what I am thinking of doing. I really do not want to have another such experience.

A couple of weekends ago, after five CTD trucks and approximately 500k miles pleasurable driving, I had my first experience with death wobble. My 98 quadcab dually has 140K. I have had it for eight years and it has been my favorite CTD. A dually with an aluminum flatbed, I typically use it only for hauling loads, my travel trailer, a car hauling trailer, or a 25' gooseneck deck over beaver tail flatbed. When I first got it I put a DSS steering stabilizer and converted to a 3 Gen trackbar with a lazersmith bracket. It has been unquestionably the best driving and steering CTD I've had. No steering wander. In fact the day the death wobble struck was thinking how very pleased I was with this particular truck. Tires are 235 85 16s. Not stock, but not phat tires by any means. No lift, no problems, just a pleasure to drive.

Nonetheless, I had dropped a gooseneck trailer load of construction materials off in Corvallis, MT and was heading back to Bozeman to pick up my Kubota L345DT backhoe/loader. I hit a via duct on I-90 immediately before the Phosphate exit and BOOM. The bridge is somewhat skewed so that the left side dips, followed by the right side, and therefore kind of slews the truck to the left (after action review on my next trip to Corvallis). The truck shook so violently that all I could think was hit the brakes and steer for the side of the road.

After I had slowed to a stop it quit shaking and having read that folks who experienced death wobble just kept on driving, I too kept on driving...for another ten miles. Then it happened again and immediately again. I spotted a pull out that I could get the truck and trailer well off the road. I thought I would drop the trailer and nurse the truck home. However, when I looked under the truck I could see the lazersmith 3 Gen trackbar mount was busted off. I was DOA.

After spending a considerable sum to load the truck on the trailer and haul both home to Bozeman. Lazersmith sent me a replacement for the bracket (apparently it was an older model bracket). I had to have a broken bolt hole ear on the truck frame welded and added some modifications to the Lazersmith bracket at a local renown custom car building outfit for a princely sum. I had to have my trailer and TLB hotshot hauled over to Corvallis (by a 2012 Dodge CTD) so I could get to work.

Causes? I know the steering dampener was leaking and I have a suspicion that the 3 Gen bracket had either worked a little loose. I really think if the bracket wasn't loose it was definitely loosened by the first death wobble and consequently broke. I replaced the steering dampener, the trackbar bushings (albeit they seemed good), and the sway bar bushings. The ball joints, U joints (king pins), and control arm bushings, and steering linkage seem to be solid.

Just soliciting some advice and commiseration.
 
'Seem' solid isn't good enough. Dodge 4x4 suspension bushings are generally well worn at 100k miles, even if a static test makes them 'seem' OK.

Want to prove or disprove it? Mount a web cam somewhere solid where you can see the bushings. In fact, mount a few more that look at other parts of the suspension. Connect them to a laptop in the cabin, start recording (at the highest framerate you can record; 15-30 FPS might be good enough), and go for a drive. You may be surprised by what you see.
 
I should add the 3 gen trackbar only had a total of 40K on the bushings. I really suspect the condition of the steering dampener was key in initiating the wobble. The bracket may have loosened up over the 40K and once things shook the busted bracket was the final straw.
 
Wow, good thing it only broke the bracket.

So after it is all repaired, I recommend both checking the torque on the bracket after 500 - 1000 miles, and consider having a few 1" welds to the frame added to reduce vibration between the bracket and frame.

As for will it return, that depends on the rest of the suspension. DW is never from just one item, it is a culmination of a few worn parts. Also tires can contribute to the issue. There have been a few really good write ups in past issue on the subject also.

Which style steering do you have? T or Y? and how are the shocks?
 
I'm not sure how a steering damper alone could ever cause death wobble. The track bar is in my experience the leading contributor so it is possible the bracket was loose or failing and you didn't realize it until it was too late. As mentioned above more often than not it is a culmination of multiple loose or worn components so be 100% certain everything is up to snuff.

On the Ford/GM comment, DW absolutely happens with Fords also. Any solid axle that utilizes a track bar to center the axle will be susceptible. GM utilizes IFS which I'm not convinced is any more reliable under an HD pickup.
What I'm saying is, if you are otherwise happy with your truck, hang in there and find the problem. They all have their weaknesses but all in all you won't find a more realible platform from that era.
 
I'm not sure how a steering damper alone could ever cause death wobble. The track bar is in my experience the leading contributor so it is possible the bracket was loose or failing and you didn't realize it until it was too late.

Completely agree, the damper can only try to mask an existing problem, it will never create one. And ditto on the track bar, every time I had death wobble on my 97 a new track bar fixed it, the rod end had vertical movement. I think these conversion brackets are probably a bad idea as it just adds another source of possible movement in the track bar.

Bottom line, you have 140k on your truck and something is loose and causing the death wobble. Hopefully it's just the track bar but check everything else too given the mileage. Death wobble is fixable!
 
I think the 3rd gen track bar conversion is a definite upgrade over the 2nd gen track bar with the ball and socket. Several years ago when mine wore out I considered upgrading to one but funds were tight as we were living on one income on top of covering the wife's books and tuition on a 4 year degree. I ended up trying the Luke's Link as a temporary fix. It lasted much longer than I expected, I finally replaced the Luke's Link with another this spring as well as the bushing on the other end.

If I ever have to replace the track bar itself it will be with a 3rd gen conversion.
 
Completely agree, the damper can only try to mask an existing problem, it will never create one. And ditto on the track bar, every time I had death wobble on my 97 a new track bar fixed it, the rod end had vertical movement. I think these conversion brackets are probably a bad idea as it just adds another source of possible movement in the track bar.

Bottom line, you have 140k on your truck and something is loose and causing the death wobble. Hopefully it's just the track bar but check everything else too given the mileage. Death wobble is fixable!
The origional-solid steel braket is very strong and lived through some extreme use in my 94.Did fine when beating the hell out of first a KORE suspension then through a much upgraded Carli Suspension.I used it first with a take off 3rd gen bar then later with a Carli 3rd gen adjustable arm,it' on 37' toyo mts and still going strong
 
Been away camping/boating/hiking for the long weekend. Thanks for the replies, insights, and suggestions.

To answer some of the questions raised.

It has the T style tie rod/drag link set up.

When I got the replacement bracket from Lazersmith I had the fabricator shop (Dark Horse Customs) beef up the bracket, weld a new bolt hole "ear" that had torn off the frame, and finally weld the bracket in place. I seriously doubt if this bracket is going to move in the future.

I am a believer in the 3rd Gen track bar conversion. This 98 has been an absolute dream to drive. NO wander. I have had a 98, a 2002, and a 97 dually to compare this trucks steering to. The 2004 dually would have the same steering characteristics, but the drive shaft whine from that era bug me to no end.

Regarding Carli's write up: All my tires are load Range E 235 85R 16s, both trucks and the trailer. I agree that Toyo tires are fantastic especially the M55s. I am running Toyo Bandag recapped M55s on my Toyota Tacoma and Bandag recapped Wild Country on the trailer. I am currently running Cooper Discoverer S/T tires on the Dodge CTD because they were considerable less than the $1200 to put new Toyo M55s on the CTD. I have had good luck with the Coopers in the past. Plus, they are a US company with reasonably priced tires. In addition, both the FS and BLM had good success with the Cooper or Cooper made Mastercraft tires in the areas where i worked.

Regarding Ford and the death wobble. From what I have read the primary design that leads to death wobble is coil springs, solid front axle, and a tackbar linkage. That means that Fords from that era are prone to DW too. From what I've read it seems Ford made a concerted effort to address this weak design in 2009. It seems that it took Dodge until 2013 to address the design weakness. That is, it may be that DW is much less an issue after 2013 for CTDs. Therefore, I was focusing on looking at the pre 2004 Fords with the 7.3 (just say no to the 6.7) that had the leaf spring front end. However, the fuel mileage is a horrible 10-13 compared to 20 for my CTD.

The big plus for me is I do most of the work on my vehicles myself. The 98 12v is relatively easy to work on. I do my own fuel filter...create a major mess...and wonder who thought up this design; Set my valves at 25K; replace a clutch; install exhaust brakes; install low range 2 wheel drive; and so forth. I completely rebuilt a Kubota 4 cylinder diesel tractor/backhoe/loader last year. But believe me, after struggling to get the compression up on a rebuilt head (did meet valve recess tolerances) and installing a custom head gasket (to meet Piston to Head clearances) I wouldn't even consider taking on a 5.9L Cummins. Leave that for the big dogs.

I know that under the hood of the Ford and Duramax is a jumbled mess that I would have to take to a shop for repairs. EXPENSIVE. That is a considerable factor in considering a switch to Ford or Duramax.

I think my next step after having replacing the trackbar bracket, trackbar bushings, sway bar bushings, sway bar end link bushings (noticeable cracked and worn), is to take the truck in to the dealer and see what their assessment is on the ball joints, wheel bearings, and tie rod components. I do not see any movement with my cranking the steering wheel. So I am thinking about a second opinion. I don't have a camera set up to watch underneath as was suggested. Although the drag link doesn't show play when cranking the steering wheel, if I grab a hold of it and twist it back and forth it does seem to have what I would call a hitch or hiccup in the back and forth movement.

I don't drive the CTD much anymore, 50K in eight years. But when I do use it it is for moving big stuff. Almost all the driving is highway driving. I would really like to have the confidence that I could hook on to my fifth wheel travel trailer or gooseneck and haul the Kubota TLB or construction materials back and forth without impending doom. Plus, I really don't like the idea of doling out another 10K -15K, plus trade in, for another truck payment at this point in my life. Anything more than that just isn't going to happen. Nor is doling out several $K for fancy suspension systems for a truck that should be good to go as designed by the factory.
 
Most DW sources will track back to tires and shocks, both suspension and steering type. Wear in the rest of the components will facilitate it but ultimately it starts with the inability to control rebound. Your truck is 18 yrs old and the rubber components are going to loose their ability to work correctly, Tires and shock are especially sensitive to these heavy trucks. If you have not put Bilsteins on for shocks, do it now. If your tires are fairly old and\or not rated in the 3600-4000 lb range replace them. The rest of the parts will depend on wear that has accumulated but it may be time to think about doing new ones that don't have vertical movement to them.
 
I guess I've never had or even heard of Death wobble in my area lots of old dodges and I've had 5 al with over 250,000 . I always figured it was just something the ford and gm guys came up with . Hope I never get it
 
Believe me if you ever have the joy of experiencing DW pulling a 25 foot gooseneck you will never forget it. Thankfully the trailer was empty. It could have been death wobble under the wrong conditions, literally.

Tires are not old, not worn, not over sized, and are E rated. Most likely not the problem. I've not really read of DW being associated with shocks. Plus, they are not in poor condition anyway. Worn bushings, ball joints, steering dampener, and most probable, a trackbar bracket that loosened over time are the likely causation.

Nope, Ford didn't invent it, unless their episodes with DW were made up just to provide cover. Simply put, coil springs, solid axle, track bar design, and normal wear of bushings and ball joints is a precursor for this particular design to end in DW.

If you think DW is made up google death wobble and check it out. Frankly, I didn't think I would experience it since I try and take care of my equipment, I don't put over sized tires or nonsense lift kits, I don't drive Baja style, I save the off road stuff for the Toyota, and don't drive over 65. I was wrong. Now, I'm trying to weigh my options so that it doesn't happening again.

I have seen videos on youtube of trucks with notable wear and wiggle of trackbars. From my assessment I did not have near that much wear in any bushings. At this point I am guessing the 3rd Gen bracket might have loosened, the steering dampener was not in good condition, and what ever wear there was was sufficient to precipitate DW when I hit the skewed bridge that slew the truck to the right as the driver's wheel hit and then again as the passenger wheel hit. The two oscillations were sufficient for all hell to break loose. From there the trackbar bracket broke really loosened up and the next bump ten miles down the road was enough to complete the damage.

It is wonderful if you have not experienced DW. The wrecker driver that towed my truck and trailer home from Deer Lodge with his 2012 CTD said he had death wobble once, with his 2004 CTD at only 40K. All in all, it really makes me wonder what is going to become of all the Dodge and Ford trucks with this design weakness? Car lots full of vehicles that should be totaled for safety. For me, I will replace all the bushings and ball joints that indicate wear. If that doesn't work, and I can not afford a CTD newer than 2013 when the design was changed, it will be time to move on to a used GMC product. Oh, how I would miss the purr, power, and simplicity of my 12v Cummins!
 
Caster wobble *(aka Death Wobble) is a fundamental weakness of all solid front axle designs. It is one of the fundamental reasons why auto makers moved to independent front suspension in the 1930s and 1940s.
 
Here's an example of DW in a Ford. I must say, this guys got more stones than I do (or less brains...:-laf) for not backing out of it right away. This is a good way to break ****. Usually DW can be duplicated over the same course and speed, IE in the video the DW starts when he crosses over a bridge at highway speeds. The combination of the approachment angle, bump and speed align and all chaos breaks loose...


https://youtu.be/8EuQ6f8rgT4
 
E rated tries really means nothing other than it is rated for an LD truck, you have to look at the sidewall height and load rating to determine its suitability of a CTD power truck. Not all E rated tires are created equal and a lot of them are just DW waiting to happen once they warm up.

Same with the shocks, because they fit don't mean they work. If you aren't running Bilsteins or an equivalent higher end shock with valving for the heavy front ends truck, it is just a matter of time. Even with correct good shocks usage will degraded the performance and they will need to be replaced or rebuilt. You can run these truck with a +1/8 turn slop in the steering and the front axle causing the truck to dog trail as long as the tires and shocks can control rebound. DW is way more complicated than just the caster wobble misnomer or worn parts, the Ford video demonstrates that really well, each tire is moving in 3 dimensions completely out of synch with each other.

The steering upgrades to both the Dodge and Ford do NOT solve the problem, they just limit the instances it can happen. Cross over steering is a good step in the right direction but not a 100% solution. The root cause of DW is and always has been NVH, once that restriction is removed the problem all but disappears. The rubber bushings allow way too much movement in all directions, as they age they just get worse and you cannot see the problem. Couple that with the slow ratio steering and the axle can completely out of whack in all directions and the feed back the from the box will never limit it.

Tires change their reactions when they get warm, shocks loose their ability to dampen the directions changes as they warm. Both are an inherent problem on an LD truck that is being used beyond its components ratings. The tendency to ignore the obvious and not pay close attention to ratings will eventually bite. Again, well over 90% of DW will find its source in the tires and the shocks, the rest is usually the composition of the suspensions and steering components. Anything that old needs all the bushings and parts updated and a close look at tires\shocks for suitability.

If you think caster wobble is the problem you might try this and see what happens. http://www.microcenter.com/product/201058/Wobble_Stopper
 
Do you have any local friends that you could borrow there tires for a day or two? That would allow to you see if it was tire related. I know for me, going from BFG to Toyo tires was a huge improvement. I have run without (discharged, not on purpose) a stabilizer and did not have any problems because the other parts are still within spec.

I also recommend starting with shocks...
 
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