2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Life After Death Wobble???

[SAndreasen]

I'm very glad I haven't had this yet

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

All this just makes me want to throw up

Thanks for the video showing the Ford DW. The more I research this the more despairing it gets.

I think blaming a solid front axle, vs IFS, is not quite correct. Solid axles have been around for a very long time and DW seems to have cropped up more recently. Say, with the advent of using coils springs/trackbars in conjunction with a solid front axle. Albeit one on line article did mention it is possible for IFS to have DW...when the parts are badly worn. DW seems to have come to the fore front when trucks dropped leaf springs in favor of coil springs. However, a sufficiently worn out steering components on a leaf spring front suspension can also result in DW, but not near the frequency of coil/trackbar front ends.

Several notes on what i have noticed in the responses. There are two schools of thought being presented. One says worn parts in the steering linkage, i.e. trackbar, tie rod/drag link joints, main ball joints, wheel bearings, control arm bushings, and/or steering dampener. The second school focuses on shocks and tires. Although I will agree that oversized phat tires seem to be more susceptible to DW, especially BFG tires. However, I personally think the causation falls more toward worn or loose steering linkage issues.

I do not think my problem is related to tires, 235 85R 16 Cooper Discoverer S/T, because I have run this set up for years and never had a problem. However, I will make sure my tires are inflated to the highest recommend PSI from heretofore. And it certainly wouldn't hurt to install a new set of shocks. However, I am more confident repairing/welding in place the 3rd Gen trackbar bracket, replacing the trackbar bushings, replacing control arm bushings, steering dampener (that undoubtedly was bad), and having a professional shop second opinion my assessment of the tie rod/ball joint/wheel bearings for deficiencies will go a long way toward preventing another incident for a few more thousand miles.

The other thing I noticed is there has not been ONE person who actually experience DW weigh in with comments on what they did to either correct the problem...or sold the vehicle (like my neighbor did following DW on his 2nd Gen truck with not many miles) I think this is quite telling.

Therefore, there are two courses of action I am considering at this point. Continue spending the $1-$1.5K to replace all suspect linkage/shock/bushings in the hopes that I will end up with a serviceable CTD truck that will meet my admitted limited needs. That is, I need to move equipment and construction materials up and down the Bitterroot and between Bozeman and Hamilton. My mileage will probably run 5K per year. Since I am 65 and will most likely no longer be do much driving at all in 10 years. I could get by with my 98 quadcab 12v CTD keeper truck until the bitter end.

Second option is to trade the truck in on a used truck. Preference would be a post 2013 CTD, but that isn't going to happen. After reading about all the horror stories of Duramax and PSDs how can anyone consider a diesel other than the Cummins? Heck, one set of Duramax injectors cost more than the 99 F150 my neighbor just picked up. And we all know how wonderful the PSDs have been...not.

After reading about Ford DW, Fords (as much as I like Fords) no longer seem to be an option. Especially when I read an article (not from a forum blah blah) that Ford DW is more likely in the gassers than the diesels. i didn't know that Ford had such a notorious problem with DW too. But it seems it is true.

So, the other idea that has been tickling my ear is a GMC/Chev 3500 gasser to cure DW once and for all!!! Decisions, decisions, what is a fellar to do?

Oh, and one last thing. The idea that "well, what the hay, the truck has 140K on it what else should one expect?", just doesn't sit well. This truck has a 500K engine in a 100K truck, WTF. I know it may be apples and oranges, but my Toyota Tacoma just turned 200K of basically trouble free drive it like I stole it. In 110K I've replace both rear axle bearings and had one freak incident one winter morning while starting the gas washed the cylinders clean and it didn't have any compression to start. I gave up and it took the shop a while to figure that out...a little oil in the cylinders and it was fixed. All this and the little four banger still is going strong, turning those 235 85R 16 Toyo M55s like it is good for another 100K.

 

[JR]

The other thing I noticed is there has not been ONE person who actually experience DW weigh in with comments on what they did to either correct the problem

Track bar.

It was the oldest part under the front end and when I got the shakes unexpectedly within the last 10 mile jaunt from a 500 mile camping trip it was the first component I looked at and subsequently replaced. That alone cured it, but nearly all other steering components have been replaced within the last 30-40k miles. Wheel bearings, shocks, coils, ball joints, TRE. Tires are in excellent condition and rotated every 10k with regular pressure checks to ensure proper inflation.


Aside from that, as Cerb has repeatedly pointed out better than anyone it cannot be attributed to one area. Each truck is different and needs to be addressed on an individual basis starting at the wheels working inward. If something is questionable replace it with a quality component and move on. DW can be scary (especially with a 9k lb 5th wheel on your 6) but IMO it would be a real shame to sell the truck based on that one glitch. A 4500 lb pickup that can tow roughly as much is a poor comparison. Ive owned a few Toyotas and while they are good trucks they have had more than their share of issues. Rotted frames, chintzy sheet metal, poor/outdated interiors, weak timing chains or belts depending on which engine you had that needed replaced every 100k miles. The point is not to turn this into a bashing thread but to point out that they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

The front end is one of the only weaknesses on your truck.

 

[cerberusiam]

You can spend $5lk replacing parts and STILL end up with DW if you don't have the right component replaced, that happens all the time and the standard response is it is typical for a Dodge. What is typical is the avoidance of responsibility because too many simply do not understand the basics. Good luck if you go that route, many have and it has been a painful journey.


As far as having DW, multiple times it has reared its ugly head in varying degrees. The worst on an 01, probably because al the parts were older and the suspension geometry is more suspect. Several issues on 3rd gens also. We even induced it on 2nd gen by putting questionable tires on it to test a theory. A set of tires that worked fine on a leaf suspension and it sent the 01 into fits at 35 mph if you it a bump right. In all cases tires and\or shocks were the culprit. This is on stock or leveling kit suspensions and tires at or less than 33". The really bad tires that caused all the problems were 37's do yes big tires have problems if they are not made correctly. A lot has to do with sidewalls, weight ratings, and age of the tires. A high dollar heavy tires rated for well over the axle and the problems all but disappear. Those tires you have look to be rated at 3000 lbs max. I would have to consider carefully putting those on a DD, would never consider them for a working truck. EVERY single tire problem I have found has been on a tire rated at 3100 lbs or less. After x miles and x heat cycles they turn into super balls on each corner. Take a look at the new trucks and rim sizes, there is more than one reason for 18 and 20 inch rims being standard now.

 

[JKosten]

I have both been in trucks with DW and had it on my old truck. Replace worn parts, and run good tires. Upgrade stuff as you can afford too. I had now worries taking my 96 with 250+ miles anywhere, or with my current truck.

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

Finally, there are some responses directed specifically at what I asked. That is, folks who have actually experienced life after DW. Thank you very much. This does a lot to answering my questions/concerns.

Both the Cooper Discoverer S/T and the Toyo M55 have the same E rating and the same load rating, 3042, for 235/85R 16s. To meet the load specifications that cerberusiam suggests would take running 265/75s or 285/75s for 16 inch wheels. Not a fan of phat tires and I doubt that many CTDs are running tires that meet that load spec. The factory spec for the OEM LT215/85 16s do not meet the suggested 3300 lbs. nor the specs for the tires I run and have run. That is not to discount or demean the suggestion by any means. But gee golly, isn't it a bit over the top that a truck would need to meet such an exacting tire spec...or else...DW. Small world.

I rotate my tires every 5K, on both my trucks. This is my oil change interval and that way it keeps me on top of the oil, the tire rotations, and when needed, the valve lash adjustments.

I am not a Dodge basher, by any means. My run with the CTDs has been phenomenally enjoyable, especially my current truck. Perhaps, I'm somewhat misguided, but when I think of some of the products Dodge brought to the US market, e.g. the Hemi, the minivan, the diesel pickup, and the diesel "Eurovan" sprinter, I respect their initiative and willingness to take a risk. i'm not a Ford basher either. My first truck was a 1965 F-250 with extremely low axle ratios (365 or 385s something like that) that would roar down the highway at a top speed of 60. It was a beast of a truck that also taught me I could actually rebuild an engine under the tutelage of my friend who proved you can simply throw all the bolts in a bucket and most will find their way back to the right hole on reassembly. Needless to say, It wasn't his first rodeo.

The only brand I'm not particularly fond of is GM, largely due to a S-10 Blazer that snapped the crank shortly after I bought it. You actually had to loosen and jack the body up to get to the bolts on the torque converter housing. I put a crank kit in that POS and it was traded for my first Toyota Tacoma. Besides, I thought every serious truck should have solid axles. That 85 Tacoma was everything JR loves about Toyota; an underpowered tin can that the timing chain wore through the side and dumped antifreeze into the crank bearings at 150K...sizzzzzle. But it did have a solid front axle and was a dream to rebuild, they all should be so simple and well thought out. My current 03 Tacoma is a refined machine, heads and tails above the 85, and I love it and abuse it dearly.

I say this to let you know that I don't mind getting a little grease on my knuckles. But here is the thought process that I have been going through. Basically both Dodge and Ford employed a supremely flawed suspension system coil over/solid axle/trackbar linkage system from1995-2012 (that is assuming the rumors are true that Dodge finally did a major redesign in 2013 and I know Ford has reports of DW on 2012s). In fact is isn't simply flawed, it is down right dangerous. I have thought how different things could have been if I had met Mr. DW under slightly different conditions; heavy traffic, oncoming traffic, winter conditions, night time, windy mountain road, someone driving who didn't know what DW was, My DW episode wasn't a shimmy a little, slow down, and be on my merry way. Rather, it was a broken disabled truck and trailer and a thousand dollars just to get it to where I could start assessing and work on it.

Basically it all boils down to this: am I going to drive a truck, Dodge or Ford, that to put it simply, is on due course dead ahead for DW. All it takes is time, wear, and a bump and someday, somewhere all these trucks will be DWing. To avoid this I would need to give all diligence to tires, tire inflation, trackbar, ball joints, tie rod, drag link, sway bar bushings, control arm bushings, steering dampener, steering box, shocks, and so forth. Or am I going to move to the IFS suspension and a gas engine (because I will not risk paying for the care and feeding of a used Duramax) and be done with it?

Believe me, I didn't re-join this forum just to complain or bash Dodge by any means. My CTDs have been SUPER. Especially this old 98 quadcab 12v dually that will undoubted be one of my favorite trucks that I've owned. Right up there with my first 65 Ford F-250 with the all metal interior. Or my old Willys Wagon that I stuffed a Buick V6 in, just because it needed to be done, I guess I needed the challenge at the time. Or my 67 British 88 Land Rover with a Chevy Iron Duke four banger and Warn planetary overdrive (16 forward gears and four reverse). I rejoined because I wanted to hear DW war stories, solutions, and sound advice in order to better think through the best course of action.

 

[fest3er]

Death wobble is, at its simplest, an engineering problem that can be called 'unwanted resonance'. Feedback and ringing in a sound system is that system falling into a state of electronic resonance. The Tacoma Narrows bridge is one example of mechanical resonance; a pipe organ is another. Sometime resonance is desired (as in a pipe organ or an oscillator or a church bell). Sometimes it is not.

*Everything* contributes to inducing death wobble: frame and suspension. A weak, cracked or broken frame or mount point can contribute. Weak sidewalls, underinflated tires, weak wheels, worn ball joints, worn trackbar joints, worn steering joints, worn suspension bushings (front and rear), worn sector shaft bearings, caster adjusters, wheel bearings, shock absorbers and weak steering shaft can all contribute.

In the low-quality video of the Ford suffering it, the tires/wheels seemed to move only in the vertical plane; this would suggest that this DW was limited to the tires, wheels, wheel bearings, ball joints, caster adjusters, and suspension bushings. The tires/wheels didn't appear to be 'steering'; they seemed to stay straight.

An alternative could be that the solid axle housing (and beam, if any) flex and cause the tires/wheels to resonate in that fashion.

4-5 tons of force have to be applied to the axle and frame to expose worn standard suspension bushings; applying a crowbar in one's driveway won't reveal much at all. I checked mine with a crowbar and nothing moved. But the truck wandered all over the road. After I replaced the bushings, the steering was solid again; I had to relearn how to steer the truck. It's best to assume suspension bushings are well worn by 90k miles. Brass bushings that are kept lubricated probably last a good deal longer.

When tracking down a resonance problem, 'seems OK' isn't nearly good enough. *Show* me that the 4000-8000 pound dynamic forces that operate on the front end don't affect the component.

Think it through. You'll discover frame/steering/suspension components you haven't checked yet.

 

[cerberusiam]

Both the Cooper Discoverer S/T and the Toyo M55 have the same E rating and the same load rating, 3042, for 235/85R 16s. To meet the load specifications that cerberusiam suggests would take running 265/75s or 285/75s for 16 inch wheels. Not a fan of phat tires and I doubt that many CTDs are running tires that meet that load spec.

You are 100% correct, a LOT of the standard offering of tires are not suitable in weight ratings to how the trucks are being used and taking the constant beating under a CTD. So many of the LT tires are closer to passenger car specs than LT because that is what the buying public demands. The 16 and 17 inch tire market is gasser and passenger specific these days, there are tires that meet what should be a minimum but they are not plentiful while being expensive. A set of 19.5's would seem a logical choice if you want some insurance. The height difference between a 215 and 235 will also play into the results as will the age. If you have been to a tire shop lately then you know that after 6 years old few of them will even touch the tire other than to trash it. In part it is liability, in part it is the newer tires have a finite lifetime for adequate performance. The throw away syndrome invades every part of our lives.

Not sure how old your tires are, not sure what the quality of the roads are where you use the truck. The last time I wen thru Montana it was not that great. A steady diet of some of those roads will destroy tires. Since road reclamation is an ongoing project no way to say what they are over the life of your tires, but, rough roads exponentially increase the wear and efficacy of even a good tire to handle the weight. Part of the tires job is to resist rebound and maintain a consistent shape, when the lose that ability it is a bad thing. Shocks are also just as critical in the ability to dampen the sharp jolts and stop the resonance that can happen. EVERTHING else plays into the final result but tires and shocks are where all of this is going to start as they are the prime contact and control component.

By all means check EVERTHING else and replace it if there is any question. Bushings are rubber and they deteriorate, just like tires, over time then fail to do their job. The truck might steer fine and exhibit no obvious looseness in a driveway check, but, that is not the same as the forces applied at speed, with or without a load, and a rough road. The stresses are high anyway and 1200 lbs of MD engine sitting almost directly over the main steering and suspension control does not help matters.

I think you are probably over thinking the DW problem at this point. It is an issue you need to be aware, but, it is a KNOWN issue with proven fixes. The gen 2's had issues with the track bar mounting and fame flex that led to problems, that is easily fixed. The tires and shock situation is as easily addressed. Unless you can get an outstanding deal on a different vehicle not sure the cost offset is worth it, that is something you have to decide.

 

[VolsFan]

Traildog, good luck getting your DW issue resolved, keep the truck for sure! Never experienced it myself, driven some ratty abused dodge diesels I could hardly keep in a straight line. Anyways, saw your in the bitterroot valley, I did a job on a cabin out there about 2010 between Darby and Hamilton for the USFS. Beautiful country, some of the best trout fishing I've gotten into in my life. Definitely is dodge country out there for sure

 

[SAndreasen]

Here's my 96 Chevy isn't it funny that it was a Chevy was the first and only time I've had death wobble

 

[JR]

I guess I've never had or even heard of Death wobble in my area lots of old dodges and I've had 5 al with over 250,000 . I always figured it was just something the ford and gm guys came up with . Hope I never get it

Here's my 96 Chevy isn't it funny that it was a Chevy was the first and only time I've had death wobble

 

[SAndreasen]

Never had death wobble on a dodge but I forgot about ma Chebby turned out to be a bad cooper at tire off the rear of my dodge that caused it

 

[madmanmanick]

I had steering wobble, but it came from the fact that my steering box was leaking badly, my sway bar end links were dry rotted, the damper was past its life, and the sway bar bushings were bad. I ended up replacing the steering box, sway bar bushings,sway bar end links (used BD), steering damper, track bar bushing, and Lukes lube fitting, and added the steering box stabilizer. After that the steering system worked wonderfully and the truck runs smooth.

 

[JMcCoy]

If you think DW is made up google death wobble and check it out. Frankly,

.

Do you know what this word means? LOL Just kidding!


Seriously, this is very simple. You already have a 3rd gen track bar. Have someone go back and forth on the steering wheel while you lay under the truck. If it is loose, replace it. If it is not loose, leave it alone. a few degrees of caster will reduce wander. That's it.